In-person friends

[cjsmith]

There's no one *physically* close to me who is also *emotionally* close to me. (Except for Rob, obviously.) My previous entry reminds me of this, because giving up square dancing is giving up the majority of my non-work social contact. But this is something I've been puzzling over for months now.

Some of my most caring friends are thousands of miles away. Just as an example, when I had surgery I was overwhelmed by the support I got -- cards, gifts, visits -- from people physically far away. Local people? Made LJ comments. :-) The Thursday night square dance group I call for once a month, to which I showed up still bandaged heavily and leaning on a walker? Had me sign a get well card for someone else! If I needed a demonstration of just how invisible I am in person, that group couldn't have planned it better.

Why is this? What is it that I'm doing?

Maybe I smell bad in person. Maybe my unwillingness to drive long distances during rush hour for social gatherings where I don't know people well is really holding me back. Maybe I don't reach out to others or plan far enough ahead. Maybe I'm just really freakin' shy (and I think there's some truth in that one). Maybe the set of people I am drawn to and the set of people who are drawn to me simply don't have a very big intersection!

I do have some people I would quickly name as friends, who are local to me, but it's interesting to note I don't see them very often -- once every couple of weeks is the *highest* frequency and that happens only when they're not very busy.

What am I doing that leads me to craft this strange unbalance in my social life?

Comments

[cyan-blue.livejournal.com]

I'd be glad to hang out more, and we sure would love to see you at Wine and Song. So many people were happy to meet you at Gaming!

W&S tends to run late - so if you wanted to drive over after rush hour, beginning around 8pm and arriving at 9pm, you'd get to be there for most of the party. And we always have crash space, if you don't want to do the drive twice in the same night.

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

That sounds like a great idea! We don't often make it ourselves, but it would provide extra incentive!

[gdmusumeci.livejournal.com]

That's a good question, but if you'd like to come over for dinner, aiglet and I would be happy to have you. :-)

(We often feel quite disconnected from the social goings-on in the greater Bay Area, perhaps for reasons similar to yours. I'll have to muse on that a little bit.)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Wow, I had no idea you were local to the Bay Area. Are you N, E, S, SF, Peninsula...?

And thank you very much! I'm not sure what to say to a dinner invitation from someone I've never met! (See, is this me pushing people away? Maybe I do that. Maybe a lot.)

[quasigeostrophy.livejournal.com]

I'd given up on separating local friend from non-local friend, and at the same time, the latter group seems to have all but dried up. I'm not doing much of anything social locally anymore, yet I have people hundreds and thousands of miles away I feel close to. I think in my case, some of my local friends have actually gotten a lot more conservative in the ways that I've gotten more liberal as we've aged, and we've just drifted apart.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, maybe face-to-face time is overrated and I can be okay with a not-very-strong local social life. I also agree that politics rears its ugly head. I do not always tread the local bay area party line, and that line is defended with such vitriol that it's easier to shut up and stay in the closet home.

[dr-scott.livejournal.com]

I identify a bit with your complaint. I'm far more shy and reserved in person than online, and people have told me that I can seem aloof. I suspect you give off I-don't-need-anything vibes, and other than the people you see regularly when you're both committed to a joint project, locals don't feel permitted to get closer to you because you don't appear to encourage it.

I have only seen you in person a handful of times, but I don't recall a bad smell. :-)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yes, perhaps that's what I'm doing -- my penchant for self-reliance could be showing up as aloofness or disinterest.

There are lots of little factors. I do not cook well, so one standard friendship-building step for adults ("Come over for dinner") is awkward. Unlike most folk in the Bay Area I don't think a half-hour drive is short, so I get out less. Stuff like that. I could probably craft solutions to these if I worked at it.

Thank you for the note about smell. That's something I might not know about if it were a problem!

[layer.livejournal.com]

i'm totally the same way. if it weren't for LJ and email i'd never interact with anyone i didn't share office space with.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I wonder if I push people away. Plus I really don't consider a half hour drive to be short, so that makes me unusual unfit for life in the Bay Area ;-)

[dieppe.livejournal.com]

It is true that long-distance friends aren't as aware of any unwillingness to drive long distances (which is relative) during rush hour (who does want to) could increase your number of long distance friends vs. local friends.. or other things, since close people figure the hassles of having you close by and long distance friends don't.

Not that I'm saying this is the case, because I'm a long distance friend too, of course... but as you say, by analogy, maybe you do smell bad in person, but long distance people don't care. I don't know. I've always wondered this about myself personally too. I'm fine with people far away, and sucky with people who live near by. In a sentence... I've no idea... :)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I think that makes a lot of sense. Local-but-far-from-me people can tell that I am reluctant to go a long ways, 'cause they invite and I don't show. People in other states don't feel that rebuff (if any) 'cause it doesn't come up.

[lesliepear.livejournal.com]

Same problem here.

Not counting Mark's childhood friend upstairs, our closest friends are at least 15-20 minutes away. (Ok, we do know a few people in the condo complex, but Marks been here 12 years and it has a pool.) Not we don't see our friends a lot or talk to them via e-mail and phone - but it would be nice to find local friends especially with children. Unfortunately we haven't signed Alan up for anything that lets us meet other people - first in/last out at daycare usually.

Are there any flight clubs you can join? Maybe you'd fit in with a bunch of airplane people.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

YAYAYAYAY SOMEONE WHO "GETS IT" WHEN I SAY "CLOSE"! You didn't say an hour's drive was close! THANK YOU!

OK, *deep breath* yeah, I hear ya. Interesting how Alan could be, but doesn't happen to be, a link to other people. It sure would be nice to have people who could just hang out at a moment's notice...

Yes, flying clubs are a good idea! Thanks!

[jupiter29.livejournal.com]

I've gone through this same mental process. I moved out here to Kansas City 4 years ago, and I still don't have any real friends here. I might go to a bar after work once in awhile, but nobody I really make plans with. Oddly, I can think of four people off the top of my head that I know from LJ and mentally consider people I would be willing to hang out with who actually live in Kansas City. I've just never done it. :) So I think laziness is a large part of it, or possibly fear of real life not measuring up to the way I/they seem online.

For whatever it's worth, I think you are a cool person. If I ever got out to... um, there... I would definitely be interested in having lunch or something with you. You seem interesting. Beyond that, I don't know and I of course can't comment on how much you smell. :)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for the disruption of moving. I moved here more than a decade ago, but I had e-mail and could keep in contact with my old friends for quite a while. I made new friends more slowly because of that.

Definitely laziness is another factor. (And/or that fear of not measuring up to whatever my online persona seems to be.) Counting only people within a twenty minute drive, I can still think of a handful of LJ friends I'd be happy to hang out with more. But I don't invite. Then I get surprised when I'm by myself! Hello. ;-)

[psi-star-psi.livejournal.com]

Umm, you work in tech in an area where everyone you know works in tech and has no social life? :-) (Hey, when is Mythbusters going to do a show on this myth?)

aelfie and I would certainly be glad to see you, though we find it challenging to travel about for a different reason. If you would like to visit us, or us to visit you, I am certain something can be worked out. It is only fair to warn that three kids do not lead to a quiet experience.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, there is a touch of that. :-) As amywithani says below, LJ (and I think this can be extended to e-mail) makes us lazy, by providing some amount of interaction with little effort.

I would enjoy meeting the twins. I haven't been over since their birth. Plus I have a bed table thingy to return to you.

After my New England trip sometime?? (next week or the week after, say?)

[sharya.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, my closest friends have NEVER been the people that I tended to hang out with on a regular basis. The people I considered my closest friends were people I ended up talking on the phone constantly with, but we rarely did anything together due to conflicting, or heavy schedules.

Even to this day, the people I socialize with are fun for socializing, but I don't consider them close at all. The ones who are the closest to me emotionally, I rarely get to spend time with them, and we can go months or even years without seeing each other... either because they live out of town, or it just doesn't work out that we can meet up.

Do you really feel that your social life is unbalanced, or perhaps you're just trying to make it so that the people you hang out with are the ones you care the most about?

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Interesting question. Maybe I don't NEED to address this, really. Thanks for that thought!

It's possible that what I want most is to understand how I am contributing to this pattern. If I could boil it down, say, to "CJ doesn't like to drive more than 20 minutes to hang out with a friend, and all her 'local' friends are farther than that," then I would have a simple decision. I could decide to meet more people in my neighborhood, relax my driving restriction, or accept that those are my priorities.

I will also get better at socializing with people now that square dancing is dying for me. It will happen naturally as I have free time and a desire to be with people.

[hopeforyou.livejournal.com]

I think if you talked to my best friend/adopted sister sebab, you would have a lot in common in this situation. All her close relationships have been with people who are physically distant, and it's a good thing that jodawi came along -- now she has more support, and someone she can relate to who's right there (especially post-transplant).

Have you thought about inviting people from distant places to come out and visit, and stay a few days? Would that satisfy the need for social contact and emotional connection?

Sometimes all it takes is the risk of putting yourself out there, and seeing what comes back.

I don't think you smell bad. I don't remember how you smell, exactly, but I would remember someone smelling bad. I remember a charming hostess who had a lovely party with delicious food at her home, and a tub full of lots of people laughing and relaxing.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Indeed, my heart goes out to sebab (and has been for months) due to this.

I am incredibly happy for her that she got this transplant. I am so happy I've been tongue-tied -- I've made maybe one comment in her journal since she was notified. I soooooooooo hope this works out well!!

I sometimes do invite people to come for a visit. O'course, flying across several states is a big investment of time/money, so people tend to come visit when they have some other reason to be in this area. I like it when that works out.

Sometimes all it takes is the risk of putting yourself out there, and seeing what comes back.

Yep, I think this is very well put. I haven't been putting myself out there. Surprise!, nothing's been coming back. Time to take a look and see how I can (and how I want to) change that.

I remember a charming hostess who had a lovely party with delicious food at her home, and a tub full of lots of people laughing and relaxing.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww, *big blush* thank you! :-) :-) (This is so not my image of myself. I don't think of myself as someone who knows how to host stuff. I'm glad that party turned out well.)

[therobbergirl.livejournal.com]

I've been giving some thought to this sort of issue, too. I blame LJ. No really.

Here's how I use LJ. Too often, I use it as a proxy for getting together with folks. Many of us post intimate details of our lives and have formed friendships that might never have blossomed had it not been for LJ. I get comfortable in that space and I forget to work on spaces that aren't LJ.

For example, let's look at your surgery. I was excited about it and what it might mean for you and then I was crushed on your behalf when it didn't work nearly as well as we'd hoped. But I never said so because well, you're local, and surely I'll be seeing you soon and can say all of these things in person. But no, I didn't see you for many weeks and by that time, the moment had passed.

We know a lot about each other, but I bet we both have a hard time imagining exactly what our faces look like and what our voices sound like. If we'd discussed your surgery in person, you'd have done almost all of the talking just as in LJ, but we'd have had the benefit of body language, facial expressions, and those wordless sounds that people make to acknowledge the other person without interrupting their flow.

Now here's the thing that really gets me. You posted awhile back about wanting occasional dining companions and I did not actively do anything (I made a mental note) even though I would love to dine with you.

With no traffic, you and I live 30-40 minutes away from each other. Mountain View is a great in-between place with lots of restaurants. You even work around there, don't you? Why did I not suggest that we see about meeting for dinner after work now and then? It's even a counter commute from my office in Redwood Shores.

Speaking for myself, LJ causes laziness.

So, um, all that said, wanna meet for dinner? My life is heavily scheduled until the house sells and we move, but I can often make a hole in this self-imposed schedule (as long as the tasks get done, precisely when they get done matters little). This week, I can open this evening (Tue.), Wed., Thu., and Fri. evenings.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I think you're absolutely right that LJ can make us lazy. It provides *some* connection at little effort, thus allowing us to remain unmotivated for potentially higher-value connection requiring significantly more effort. This is certainly happening to me. I'm not making the effort outside LJ.

Yesyesyesyes dinner! I too would love to dine with you. You alone, you and palecur, either way, it's all good.

I just booked something this evening, and sadly I'd better decline the other evenings this week due to an early-Thursday-morning departure for New England. How is next week? So far I have every evening (except Sunday) next week free.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I'd actually like to see you, though I never do. And a recent series of comments in akienm's journal made me think I should introduce you and inflectionpoint. Given that, what would I need to do to make that happen?

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see you more, too. Know what? Mary and Casey need to host more parties! :-) (I say that because they're physically in between us, and because I have been known to see you at their place.)

Heh, shifting the load onto someone else is so tempting. ;-)

Would inflectionpoint be weirded if I randomly friended? I just glanced at her journal and I love the way she writes.

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

No, an hour isn't close, you're right. "Close" 15-20 minutes TOPS; closer is better.

I definitely share the sentiments about not getting out much, and having it be difficult to get to social events, especially on weeknights. Why do you think we have so many events HERE?? Otherwise we'd never see anyone outside of Allegra's school. And all that said, I'm willing to drive occasionally across the bridge for lunch. brian1789 and I have been known to get together sometimes on that side of the bay. And I'd be happy to meet you somewhere for lunch halfway-ish, too. If you're willing to do the drive during non-rush hour, we can have lunch over here sometimes, too. Brian and I try to alternate (though in reality this means he comes over here far more often, because he LIKES to drive, and I DON'T. ;^).

Tuesdays and Fridays are often best for me, since usually that's when Allegra is in daycare till 6. But other days are also possible.

Let me know if any of this sounds good to you. And no, I don't recall you smelling bad, either. ;^) (hug)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Why do you think we have so many events HERE??

Yes indeedy, that's a good idea. If I want some events in the South Bay I would do well to figure out how to host some! :-)

What's a good halfwayish sort of place? I know Mountain View is full of restaurants, and I suspect San Leandro is, and halfway between is sorta... the middle of the Dumbarton Bridge? But I don't know the area well enough to say what's really halfway or whether there's a good nest of restaurants near it.

he LIKES to drive, and I DON'T.

Heh, I'm with you (sadly). Part of it is the job, part of it is just natural laziness I guess. But really, it's time. The travel time does add up.

(hugback) :)

[ambar.livejournal.com]

I'd actually noticed we were getting-closer recently, and liking it. I think for a long time we were simply scheduled against each other -- square dancing vs. cat shows.

Guilty as charged on the 'insanely busy', I admit.

There may also be elements of how one processes 'caring', or shows it. Other than for my mom (who is across country) I buy flowers maybe once every five years. I think I have a get-well card for a former instructor who I heard had hip surgery a year ago; the card is still rattling around in my 'project support' file even though the item to send it to him has long since aged off my to-do lists. Stuff like that.

In some of this, I think, I am possibly just a typical geek. And in some of this, I think, there is a personal flinch about giving and getting tangible objects -- I tend to regard them as clutter and complications, and would rather listen, or be listened to.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I'm liking it too! And yes, we are both busy enough that scheduling problems have had an effect.

I tend to regard [tangible objects] as clutter and complications, and would rather listen, or be listened to.

*nodnod* There's a touch of that, I expect. And I do have way too much clutter!

More hanging out with you would be a coolness. :-)

Personally:

[the-ogre.livejournal.com]

I don't know you well, at all, though I do like what I do know. Getting to know you better would be a fine thing - but the realities of scheduling intrude.
Bear in mind, I don't know how much the above is reciprocated (to be honest, I don't think anyone does know that about anyone else unless they specifically inquire), and due to my scheduling, I haven't made any specific attempt to get to know you better.

I really don't think that you are doing anything specifically to cause the imbalance - it's something that happens. From what small amount I've heard from friends we have in common, you are well-liked. For whatever reasons, I perceived you as more busy and less socially available than seems to be the case - and you have my apology for that.

So - wanna hang out in your neck of the woods sometime (that would be "sometime after I get back from my impending trip to SoCal")?

Re: Personally:

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Looking through the comments here, the realities of scheduling seem to be the biggest factor. I'm in the South Bay. On my LJ friends list I can think of two people who are also in the South Bay: one is too busy to read LJ any more, and the other one is busier than that but manages to read! Everyone with free time seems to live in Berkeley or SF.

"Busy" is probably true, and "less socially available" (given my penchant for *not* spending an hour in a car) is probably also true. No apologies necessary!

You work in SF, right? So getting together for lunch is probably not an easy/frequent thing. (I suppose we could meet at Stanford shopping center again.) But we could do dinner sometimes.

[rampling.livejournal.com]

*HUGS*

Damn, I wish I lived closer. I'm one of those odd mutants who doesn't mind driving an hour for a cool event. Though I also tend to make a later night of such an event, to make it worth the longer drive. Because of my mutant comfort with driving and my freakish late-night awakeness, I will be the one to drive across town to meet with friends -- I'm a convenient friend that way. But I don't have many LA friends, so that willingness very often goes to waste. Or lately it's not so good too, since I have such low energy due to my sleeping problems.

I do feel I'm quite picky about friends, so often I don't find enough of 'em locally. And for a low-level casual friend, I'm much less likely to drive far, and won't do that so often. I really like my much-longer-distance Bay Area friends, and others, but that's inconvenient for as frequent visits as I'd like, plus I have to impose on their hospitality. More local would be nice, but I don't know where to find 'em -- that's my biggest problem

Long distance friends can be cool -- don't discount 'em! ;) Invite 'em to visit more often! Yeah, that's it! ;)

But... I sympathize. I want more local friends too.

The driving thing can be a problem, I know. Maybe if you increase your willingness to drive just a little bit, and/or arrange some little weekend events where you meet people at closer places in the middle somewhere, you could prod your situation towards more friendfulness?

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I wish you lived closer too! I'd be pestering you to move up here, if you hadn't already made it very clear that you are committed to staying in LA.

(almost typo: "staying in LJ.")

Long distance friends can be cool -- don't discount 'em! ;) Invite 'em to visit more often! Yeah, that's it! ;)

YOU! VISIT MORE OFTEN! Um, I mean, it sure would be great if you were to visit more often, and I'd enjoy seeing you. That's how I'm supposed to say it, right? :-)

Yes, I like the meeting in the middle. That would already mean increasing my driving limits, of course; I'm quite simply on the wrong end of the bay for nearly everybody. But I'm sure I could think up events that could happen a half hour from me/them. Just requires some thought and some planning.

[jb98.livejournal.com]

I have the same imbalance. I find it easier (safer maybe?) to communicate with people long distance, mostly in writing, than I do in person. I recently stayed with three sets of different friends in Ontario and British Columbia. Our relationships are quite close online, but I found myself not wanting to go into the deep emotional details in person. I think it's socialization to some extent, where I'm not comfortable exposing my innermost thoughts and feelings face to face.

I often feel invisible locally, even when I have a lot of contacts. Those relationships never seem to develop into friendships, they're mostly being in the same place at the same time kind of relationships. It sounds like that's similar to your experience with your square dance group. When you figure out how to resolve that, please let me know.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I suspect I do the same -- I am not as open in person as I am online. That goes along well with feeling invisible; how are people supposed to know/see me if I don't open up? *nod*

Those relationships never seem to develop into friendships, they're mostly being in the same place at the same time kind of relationships. It sounds like that's similar to your experience with your square dance group.

Yes, that's EXACTLY it! Great way to put it into words. I suspect resolving that is a matter of getting over a sort of energy barrier: deciding to open up just a little more, or being willing to invite people to do something together -- putting myself (yourself) out there and seeing what response comes back. It's not a thing that comes naturally to me. Maybe I can learn it.

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

eeyore_grrl and I and sometimes Tim and sometimes [Unknown site tag] and various others like to go to the Grapevine (http://www.grapevine-wg.com/) on an occasional Tuesday and do a wine flight and some cheese, sometimes grabbing dinner afterwards. Think you'd be up for that? I'd love to see you, and we can put you in the email loop.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I very much enjoyed the last Grapevine trip I shared with you folks! Yes, thank you -- that'd be lovely. I couldn't do it every Tuesday 'cause it involves leaving work early, but I'd enjoy coming sometimes.

[allanh.livejournal.com]

I'm in a similar situation. I read other people's LJs about all of the friends they have dinner with on a regular basis, and wonder if something's wrong with me (or us - me & Randy) because I (we) don't do that any more.

If you like, I'm willing to work with you to organize a live-and-in-person party/dinner/potluck type event.

(Having said that, I just realized that I'm working the next four Saturdays in a row ... but I'm still willing to work with you on something. Maybe a Friday night or Sunday late morning gathering?)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I know what's wrong with me (or us): I don't cook (and Rob doesn't eat). It sure does change the social dynamics. Incredible how much, really.

Oo, that'd be neat. As for the schedule, no worries: I'm mindbleedingly busy during November! It'd have to be early Dec or in the new year, sadly!

[tsjafo.livejournal.com]

I have no social life outside of LJ. Since I have no social skills to speak of, this isn't necessarily a bad thing for me. At first thought, it's hard for me to imagine someone as wonderful as you are without a bus load of friends anxious to spend time with you. Are people so comfortable with you that they take you for granted? They are missing a lot.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone's taking me for granted -- people don't really know me, outside of LJ. Thank you for the compliment!

I suspect I don't have a whole lot of social skill to speak of either. I see people rarely enough that I can maintain "best behavior" and not get caught being a total dork. :-)

[mountainkitten.livejournal.com]

I have a similar problem really. John and I have moved so much, that I have very few people I see regularly in person. the people I talk to day to day are all online for hte most part, except for John of course. I completely miss my semi monthly luncheons with my knoxville friends.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

That is a difficult thing about moves. :-( I would probably have a thriving social life if I hadn't left the community of friends I had from university. But I left, and the new place didn't have a built-in crucible where people were forced to get to know each other. School was good for that!

[oddhack.livejournal.com]

I don't know about the general problem. But as regards dancing specifically, I've never found it to be a great place to make friends. It constitutes about 90% of my social contact and I am sociable with a lot of dancers - but the contact is largely superficial and built around the shared activity, not around our relationship to each other as individuals.

Not really surprising. Interest in dance is not IME a predictor of, well, anything else about someone's personality. Other than being able to keep time and stay reasonably clean, so people are willing to dance with you :-)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I agree about dancing. I even seem to recall we've mentioned this effect before. (Ah yes -- people are willing to dance with me, therefore I probably don't smell bad in person! Had forgotten that bit of info! [grin])

[aelfie.livejournal.com]

just as long as you invite us! we get together on a somewhat regular basis (but would love it to be more so...where's my lasagna???)

hrmmm...will have to start including you, CJ, for our friday night dinner invites=)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Lasagna! ...couldn't resist.

What time do you folks eat? You can tell what time I left work today :-/ (or maybe you can't: a bit after ten).

[firecat]

I enjoy the dinners the OH and I have had with you.

I didn't know whether you'd welcome post surgery support or distraction from me/us - I know that when I am post surgery I do NOT want visitors who aren't "family" = people I'm very comfortable with, and I kinda figured you might be the same way.

And I just don't do cards and gifts. I guess it's a failing, but it's not one I'm likely to change any time soon.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I've enjoyed those, too.

Yes, there are quite a few reasons local people wouldn't have dropped by after my surgery. I didn't mean to suggest any sort of failing in others -- I hope it didn't come across that way!