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I'd be happier if I learned to forgive old hurts.
Sometimes I find it easier to forgive if I can put myself in the other person's shoes and understand a little - what pressures that person was under, what might have been meant but not said, what might have been said but not meant.
Sometimes I can forgive if I just don't give two hoots about the other person at all. It's incredibly freeing to hold someone in (let's be honest here) such low esteem that I don't care what they think of me. Sadly, or perhaps gladly, this one's rare for me.
Sometimes I can forgive if it's been long enough that I'm not the same person I was. I care less what was done to that CJ, or I now see how I set myself up for it.
Often times, an apology (particularly an indication that hurt wasn't intentional) is all I need. Then it's over, done, gone.
Those are the easy cases. They're so easy it's almost cheating. Real forgiveness... no, I don't think I'm quite so good at that.
Sometimes I find it easier to forgive if I can put myself in the other person's shoes and understand a little - what pressures that person was under, what might have been meant but not said, what might have been said but not meant.
Sometimes I can forgive if I just don't give two hoots about the other person at all. It's incredibly freeing to hold someone in (let's be honest here) such low esteem that I don't care what they think of me. Sadly, or perhaps gladly, this one's rare for me.
Sometimes I can forgive if it's been long enough that I'm not the same person I was. I care less what was done to that CJ, or I now see how I set myself up for it.
Often times, an apology (particularly an indication that hurt wasn't intentional) is all I need. Then it's over, done, gone.
Those are the easy cases. They're so easy it's almost cheating. Real forgiveness... no, I don't think I'm quite so good at that.
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I understand what you mean about the easy ones, though. Although it's not that rare for me to not give two hoots about what someone thinks of me. It's more based on whether or not that person has an important enough place in my life to care, rather than having a low opinion of them, but I see what you mean.
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I probably care way too much what other people think of me. Definite bug in the system.
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I have been known to hold onto anger and hurt for much longer than I needed to, in most cases. Like you, I wish I had the sense to drop it sooner. I have decided recently, at least for myself, that the opposite of love and caring is not hate and not caring, it is apathy. The I could really give a flip less about you or the situation kind of apathy. It is incredibly freeing to have that attitude and feel that way; I know once I reach that point, the situation no longer has any power over me :)
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Agreed. I too have felt that freedom.
There's a geeky part of me that wants to optimize everything, and it looks at this uncaring and says "wow, THAT'S powerful, I want that ALL THE TIME. Then I'd never get hurt." I can even rationalize it by saying "Buddhist detachment". But I'm not sure where detachment ends and being completely emotionless begins. If I care about absolutely nothing, why continue this lifespan? No point. I struggle with this...
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To live as a whole person, I feel like I have to allow for that possibility of joy. And also the possibility of redemption, even of people I don't want to forgive. My religious faith is probably the basis for that; if I was an atheist, I honestly don't know if I could do it. (I mean, geez, what else was Jesus' story all about?)
It certainly does make it harder when said person is really bad at apologies, though. Sigh. Did you see the very-private post I put up the other day, then pulled down again? I ripped into someone, but they apologized, and I couldn't NOT forgive. Things are okay, for now...
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Exactly. I can't see being completely 100% "detached" (with my limited and probably flawed understanding of what the Buddhists mean by that).
And also the possibility of redemption, even of people I don't want to forgive.
Yes. That may be a separate piece for me -- first learn how to let go of the baggage I'm carrying around, and then learn how to recognize the inherent good in others despite their human flaws.
I didn't see the very-private post in question, but I think I know what you mean. An apology can be very powerful.
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Of course, my glasses are more than a bit rose-colored at the moment, and I'm sure you know why.
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And yeah: *hug*.
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But then, I'm not completely sure that my version of "forgive" is all that thorough. I've had instances where I felt that I'd forgiven someone, but as soon as I saw old patterns coming from them again, I'd resume packing the machine guns as if I'd never stopped being angry at all.
Dunno. My experiences with forgiveness have not gone well so far in this life. All the people I've attempted to forgive and start over with have gone on to do the same things to me all over again (and sometimes, a third or fourth time), which turns it into an abortive attempt in the long run. :\
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Ohhhh yes, this is a big element of it all too.
I think -- or at least I hope, for my own future happiness and sanity -- that there's a distinction between "forgive" and "let 'em do it to me all over again". I would like to forgive AND hold firm boundaries. I guess that means letting go of the hurt and anger that poison my own system while remaining aware that the events occurred. I'm not good at it.
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Questions about the idea and usefulness of forgiveness
If you have some useful insights into what forgiveness means and what advantage it might have for me in these sort of extreme circumstances, I'd love to hear it. I'm eternally baffled by this concept of forgiveness. I'm certainly not against anyone who does get it and find it useful, I just don't get it myself. I've remained curious about this topic, because I feel like I must be missing something that so many people find so important (though I'm used to that feeling). But in this case I don't even understand the concept well enough to know if I'm not participating in something that might be helpful to me.
Re: Questions about the idea and usefulness of forgiveness
There's the phrase "forgive and forget", which seems to me to ignore the very thing you're talking about: these incidents DID happen and they DID cause pain. It also seems to encourage naively giving people eighty-fifth chances.
There's deciding the other person wasn't at fault or somehow isn't a bad person, which I suppose is a question for the philosophical or spiritual among us -- what's "a bad person"? Me, I don't know and I don't think I'll ever know. I label people "bad people" based on how much trouble they cause me and mine, frankly.
And there's relaxing my own grip on the pain and hurt. Healing, as much as I can; seeing new situations without preferentially comparing them to the old one. Letting it go. That part I think (hope?) is useful.
Re: Questions about the idea and usefulness of forgiveness
Yeah, that one I'm against, in the case of huge grievous incidents. Y'know, "fool me once...." I wanna remember and learn from my mistakes, and sometimes those mistakes are people.
I will do "forgive and (mostly) forget" for the common sorts of lesser offenses. With the exception that I will remember the incident solely for the purposes of discovering if there's some sort of disturbing underlying pattern.
And, for me, to manage the "forgive" part I (usually) need to hear two things:
(A) "I'm sorry." (stated explicitly or implied)
(B) "I understand now why that hurt you and I will do my best to avoid doing such a thing again."
2. deciding the other person wasn't at fault or somehow isn't a bad person
To me, deciding the other person was at fault, in some intentional or egregiously selfish way, is occasionally quite important to me. It means, to me, that such a person will do such things again. I label such a person "a bad person" (actually I'm more likely to label them "dangerously bad trouble") in at least that particular way, and is the extremely rare sort of person that I'll actually warn others away from. I currently have 3-5 (a fuzzy boundary) such people on my list, and hope never to add any more. These people go way beyond ordinary problems or breakups or bad incidents.
3. relaxing my own grip on the pain and hurt
Yeah -- I was trying to get at that, by saying that I need to respect the effect this pain has had on me, how it's changed me, and let that be a part of the me that goes on. When I no longer obsess or am overly paranoid about similarish sitiations, I feel I've "moved on" enough. But I don't see this as "forgiveness".
So I see the first two you've listed here as "forgiveness", and I don't see them as always desirable, don't think they're appropriate for the few big worst cases. But I don't really see the third as "forgiveness", but more as "moving on" or "letting go".
My concept of forgiveness is that it's something you usually *give* to someone else, some sort of absolution. Which includes giving them something like amnesty for the offense, perhaps writing it off as a learning experience or an unintentional mistake. You can continue to have a positive friendship or relationship or even post-breakup friendship with such people whom you've forgiven -- I think forgiveness is essential for continuing healthy friendships and relationships.
When I decide to "move on" or "let go" of a hugely bad and blameworthy incident, that's for me -- I still feel that the person in question remains as blameworthy as ever, and should stay convicted (in my head) of that crime. As I've said, I save this sort of continued blame only for especially egregious deeply-trust-destroying incidents or behaviors.
I guess I'm writing so much about this, because in a couple of the cases of the 3-5 people I've not forgiven, people tell me I should forgive them. And I don't agree, pretty vehemently. So when the topic of forgiveness comes up, I still wonder why it's such a good idea for all cases. Why "forgive" a huge grievous offense?
Re: Questions about the idea and usefulness of forgiveness
I agree that 1 and 2, as stated, are not always good things and can have bad side effects. 2 perhaps, if it could be done fully and authentically, would be good -- but I'm not at the level of spiritual growth where I can do it for big or even middling-sized situations.
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Yes, that. I don't count that as "forgiveness" exactly. It's also tied up with not giving a damn anymore. I've found, lately, that I can move on, not carry the weight, while not forgiving in the classic sense of "forgive and forget". Some people are better kept far, far away. Completely away if possible. Those people are few and far between, fortunately, but they exist.
There are people who fuck up inadvertantly or without spite - we all do that. And then there are the people who are toxic, or users, or otherwise display a pattern of behavior which ranges from simply self-centered to nearly vampiric in its nature. I guess I'm getting old and impatient, but I haven't got *time* to deal with those people. I find that I'm getting pretty picky about who I allow close, and who I allow close includes those who I would forgive. The side-effect of that has been that I don't hold onto anger nearly as long as I used to; I haven't got time or patience for that, either. I find it easy, these days, to stay open to the people who enhance my life and this world and walk away from those people who detract from it all.
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I find it easy, these days, to stay open to the people who enhance my life and this world and walk away from those people who detract from it all.
Ideal! Me, I'm much better at the walking away than the staying open. Despite the fact that I talk a lot, sometimes about some fairly personal things, few people know me. Even with those I'll "turtle up" easily. This could be improved.
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