People who talk as if they know

[cjsmith]

I have a coworker who talks as if he is an authority -- full of confidence, very firm statements -- when he doesn't have any information or experience to back it up.

Random person: "Hey, where's a good dosa restaurant?"
Him: "Restaurant A is the best."
Me: "I like Restaurant B, too."
Him: "A is way better."
Me: "Have you ever been to Restaurant B?"

No, of course; he hadn't. I had to ask him twice before he admitted it, too. So he knows when he's doing this, and he doesn't like getting caught at it.

In another hallway conversation, just now, he spouted off about flying airplanes, a subject I have some minor experience with. Now that I know he doesn't like being confronted, I stopped myself short of asking outright if he had a pilot's license. (Obviously, I'm convinced he doesn't.) I did go ahead and mention what "my flight instructor" had "taught me" about the topic "when I was getting my license". He had the grace to stop making shit up for a few minutes.

How the heck do people deal with somebody like this? Dude, you're POLLUTING THE DATA STREAM. Shut UP. But maybe I'm oversensitive about people making things up and presenting them as truth. Maybe people are smarter than I think, and there isn't any increased tendency to believe a person just because he's confident and loud. (And maybe the Easter Bunny really is ten feet tall.)

Comments

[linuxcub.livejournal.com]

Why does this person do this ?

Is there something he wants, and is there another way for him to get it, that doesn't involve this kind of behaviour ?

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I have no idea. I doubt I'll find out unless I get to know him a lot better, as he doesn't seem to want to face the fact he does it at all, so asking him why is unlikely to work well. But I admit I wish he'd go figure it out and fix it.

[dpolicar]

I find that by being an attentive audience and asking leading questions and never contradicting them, I can string them along into saying more and more outlandish things. It's fun.

[ckd]

Kind of like the fun game to play with idiot vendor reps?

"Does your product support RFC 1149?"

Some of them will say "yes, of course we do."

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

There is a devilish little imp inside me who really wants to try this. Heh. :) I bet it takes a bit of practice, though, to do it well.

[wildseakitten.livejournal.com]

oh I know people like that. a cousin and a brother particularly are like that. both know everything about everything, and if one doesn't know it, the other is sure to know it... and usually they both know more than the other person. they were certainly a trip to listen to when they go to talking about something like you just mentioned.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

They're kind of fun to watch, but when something has to be decided, I wish there were a way to put an automatic label onto everything they say: CAUTION, THIS CLAIM IS COMPLETELY UNSUPPORTED.

Head, Gut, or Groin?

[psi-star-psi.livejournal.com]

Since you included the gender of the speaker this time, I feel safer attributing it to Male Answer Syndrome (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=male+answer+syndrome).

Re: Head, Gut, or Groin?

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

This guy doesn't even need a question to answer. He'll invent some random fact and START a conversation with it. Did he not get enough attention as a kid, or what?

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

You must have read this (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-solnit13apr13,0,526991.story). Right?

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I hadn't! An excellent treatment of the topic. Now what I'd love to know is a sort of verbal aikido for sending such an idiot flying (with his own momentum) into a brick wall.

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

There's a longer version here (http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174918).

I printed it out and stuck it to the refrigerator. Seven pages in 16 pt Times New Roman.

[meglimir.livejournal.com]

I know somebody like that.

It's taken over 2 years of constantly telling him, "People like you for *you*. They like you as you *really* are. They don't want some fake, not-you person." And so on. (Ok, it helps that he really *is* a nice guy when he's not trying to channel some artificial persona.)

He's finally, more often than not, telling people the truth about himself, and holding conversations from his own merits, instead of trying to get away with impressing people who (he hopes) can't spot the ringer. It took a long time for him to get started on the right track, but he's got better faster.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I bet he's even more likable now, too. *sigh* I don't know this coworker of mine well enough to try to bolster him up, nor even to know whether that's the underlying issue. In my selfish curmudgeonly way, I just kinda wish he'd grown up by now. :-/

[gdmusumeci.livejournal.com]

I did go ahead and mention what "my flight instructor" had "taught me" about the topic "when I was getting my license".

You seem to have mistyped "certificate." ;-)

Anyways, I hate this sort of behavior. I used to violently crucify people who did this. Seriously, their heads were on pikes outside my office. But now in my tender old age, I have mellowed out and learned that it is not really worth spending the energy to get worked up over it, and I just ignore them.

Sometimes this happens in meetings, though, and then I get a good few minutes of amusement out of drawing little cartoons of them being dismembered and thrown into the flaming belly of Moloch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch).

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

You seem to have mistyped "certificate." ;-)

You're absolutely right, I have. :-)

I haven't mellowed yet. We've got two blustery clattermouths in the organization, one of whom is this guy and the other of whom is simply happiest when telling everybody things they already know or telling people how to do their jobs. I want duct tape, I tell you. Duct tape. I think if these two couldn't spout off at the mouth they'd explode into tiny bits.

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

I see that a lot in the cooking communities. Someone will ask a question and people will pull stuff right out of their asses. Makes me crazy, when I let it. I don't let it much, anymore. But if I'm feeling cranky, or someone is, you know, endangering someone's health by posting something stupid and so not right, I'll comment.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I need to mellow... but I'm sad for the people who do know something and are being talked-over by these snow jobs. *sigh*

[kimatha.livejournal.com]

You know why I hate those people? Because when I was young and naive people like that talked in front of me and I didn't realize they were talking out of their asses, and it made me feel stupid! When I finally grew worldly and experienced enough to spot these people for what they really were, it made me feel so sad for my young, naive self. Those kinds of people made me stay timid and tongue-tied way longer than I should have.

As to how to deal with them? I like how you handled the airplane situation.

Also, I love this: Dude, you're POLLUTING THE DATA STREAM. Shut UP.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Heck, I feel sad for my CURRENT self, because even though I can spot them, I can't out-talk them. Their ideas will more often than not be the ones that carry the day. The airplane situation was an unusual case; I can point to an FAA certificate and say "see, I have at least some clue here". But most times I don't have some officially sanctioned proof of knowledge I can rub their little bad-dog noses in.

It's like they're URINATING in a stream people DRINK FROM. I really hate this behavior.

[airporter.livejournal.com]

I have no idea why I do it occasionally, though I've been very fortunate that most of those who call me on it are kind and generous like yourself. I call those people friends... :D

Okay, well yeah. I know why I do it. It's "my brain is bigger than yours." Comes from being the only pansy in a Redneck house maybe?

[thorswitch.livejournal.com]

I catch myself doing that from time to time - though usually what I'm doing isn't so much making things up wholesale, but more listening to what the person I'm talking to is saying and what I already know, and then kind of extrapolating from there. Not much better, really, I know.

I'm sure it has to to with trying to cover up my absolute lack of self-esteem and self-confidence. I understand airporter when he says it's the "my brain is bigger than yours," thing, though for me, it's not from being in a redneck house, but because my brain's about the only damn part of me that works like it's supposed to and often the only thing about myself I feel I can take pride in.

Since I started catching myself doing it several years ago, though, I've tried to make an effort to acknowledge when I'm speculating on something by saying stuff like "from what I've read" or "my understanding is" or "I don't know for sure, but I think this...." - stuff like that. I dunno how much that's worth, but I figure it's better than just going on and letting whomever I'm talking to think I'm actually knowledgeable on the topic at hand... ::sigh:: I'm MUCH better at catching it and hedging my comments when typing than when talking, though, because sometimes words come out so fast I actually have trouble tracking my line of reasoning - LOL

Oh, CJ - sorry the glucose test was so awful... blech! I hope your results are good, though :)

[densaer.livejournal.com]

Q: Do you know of a good dosa place around here? There are mornings I'd kill for a good dosa.

Q2: Airplanes. Those are those things with feathers I see in the sky, right? Or are those birds...

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Mornings? Hrm, I don't know who's open mornings. But I adore Saravanaa Bhavan, on Mary Avenue in Sunnyvale. I should also go get the name of Restaurant A from Mr. Snow Job, because who knows, maybe it IS better. I haven't been there. :)

[wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com]

Men Who Explain Things. (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-solnit13apr13,0,526991.story)

I think you're handling him beautifully. Do not be cowed. Kick his ass with facts.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

This is a huge chunk of why I wish I were a good debater. I don't HAVE facts memorized, most of the time. In most knowledge domains, I don't HAVE a little piece of paper (like a FAA pilot certificate, or authorship of a book someone's talking about) to rub their bad-puppy noses in. And I get frustrated and tired when I consider that memorizing everything may be the only way to counter this kind of verbal diarrhea. :-(

[recordersmith.livejournal.com]

I know when I do something like that from my point of view I'm presenting hypotheses, not giving answers that I think are cast in stone. I'm used to, in my line of work, not saying "I dont know" but rather saying "well it could be X" (and then usually going and figuring out if that's right). This does often spill over into answering people's questions or statements--I'm less likely to just say "I dont know" and more likely to immediately think of what possibilities are, and I really want to be helpful rather than a dead end. I hope I make that clear in my phraseology, but I might not always.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, a simple "it could be" makes a world of difference. This guy really gives the impression he's trying to win a fight all the time, rather than present possibilities.

[pixiecrinkle.livejournal.com]

Dude, you're POLLUTING THE DATA STREAM.

I think I need to steal this. I am sick and tired of people espousing "facts" that I must counter by starting every sentence with the phrase "Well, what I've found in my RESEARCH is..."

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

No kidding. Me, I want my word to mean something; when I say something, I want people to think "Hey, she's smart and she's not a liar; she had a good reason to say that." Not that I can't be wrong, but just that I won't deliberately make it worse by spewing randomness. And I want the same courtesy from others.

[racerxmachina.livejournal.com]

I was avidly watching the 2006 World Cup during the summer when Eric moved up to get started in the Bay Area and I stayed in Santa Barbara. In a way, it saved my sanity to throw myself into fangirling over the French team. (ZIZOU WHHHHHYYYYY)
During one of the earlier rounds of games, I was talking with Eric on the phone about my concern that a particular team was going to be a challenge for one of the leading French scorers.
"Yeah, well," rapped Eric, without thinking, "he's been playing really erratically."
"Wait," I said, "who says?"
"Everybody." Here, "everybody"= me + mouse in my pocket
I then proceeded to list the scorer's past accomplishments for the week, the fact that he'd been responsible for most of the French goals scored, and that I was concerned that the other team was good, not that he was bad.
"Hey, have you been even WATCHING the games?" I asked?
"No," he admitted.

That's the only time I've put him in his place for spouting off like that-- he doesn't do it often, but it's part of basic human nature to act like you know what's being talked about even when you don't.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

"Everybody." Here, "everybody"= me + mouse in my pocket

*laughter* I so want to steal this!

Rob makes stuff up and presents it as fact too, occasionally. Perhaps we all do it from time to time. This coworker... man, it's just relentless. *sigh* I suppose in that case it's almost better. People will figure him out more quickly.

[dcart.livejournal.com]

So many comments...

Did anyone post a link to Men Who Explain Things (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-solnit13apr13,0,526991.story)?

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

*giggle*

In case that question was serious, you're the fourth.

[moriamerri.livejournal.com]

The article was both great and depressing. Ug. I'll have to look for this more explicitly to see how much of my "I do have a brain" defensiveness is triggered by this sort of thing.

Now, on the what-to-do question, I mention for your consideration that it is possible to explain to such a person that you are starting to distrust their conclusions about things. I'm not recommending it. But it is a very real effect of this, right?

Big empathy on the effects on workplace life. I once worked with someone (and I'm not sure it is EXACTLY the same, but it seems related at least) who had a long record of drawing faulty and unsupported conclusions. In the discussion of most anything, he had a rather patronizing tone (or so it seemed to me). The real problem, however, was not HIM but that **other people believed him**. He had a (weird IMO) sort of reputation as a smart or technically-helpful guy. People treated him just like he acted. Me and my (female) coworker were both on to him, but --as you said-- the problem persisted when others were listening and taking his information as information rather than wild speculation. BTW I'm referring here to work-related things -- I didn't try to discuss news and personal matters with him -- it would feel too awful.

And then there is the issue of how do I adequately represent my level of knowing. Even when I'm trying to be accurate (which I generally am trying to do) -- um, sometimes it is darned challenging. "Oh I once did blah-blah-blah" works for accuracy and is likely to be ignored, especially if I leave some (very accurate and very logical) room for doubt. "such and such works" is a bit too confident in many cases. Or not, but my criteria may not match yours. It's maddening. I think sometimes I sort of "join your dude's team" and sound too sure, in an attempt at rebellion (against various authorities on everything). Trying to find some space in the world....

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

You're absolutely right that one very real effect is that I now mistrust what he says. Of course, it's not exactly "starting" any more. :-) But I could, if I chose to broach the subject, phrase it as if it were.

Isn't it weird when a whole office seems to get under the spell of one of these numbskulls? Is it really that much easier for a woman to see through the snow job, and if so, is it because we get them aimed at us relentlessly throughout life and thus we develop detection skills in self-defense? Sadly, this picture seems all too plausible. I weep for the state of humanity. How much more we could accomplish if we weren't spending energy on our collective boneheadedness!

I too have trouble deciding how to present my level of certainty. Usually, I err on the side of caution -- the "at least I'm not being dishonest" approach -- and I routinely get ignored. I'm grateful that my current workplace seems to be a bit less prone to ignoring me. I don't know WHY, except perhaps that we have a surprising number of women for a techie startup, but I'm grateful that it happens.

[wordripples.livejournal.com]

Always seems to be men too...i'm in a categorically-hating-men mood lately, so yeah, I can relate!