Am I going insane or coming back from there?

[cjsmith]

Ever get to the point when you really want to talk to a person about something and you realize he doesn't want to hear about it? Ever want support from someone and realize that he's got faaaaaaar more important things on his mind than hearing about YOUR life and what's going on with YOU? That point where you suddenly wake up and see something you later feel like you should have known for years?

I have some stress about the whole interview/job-offer situation, and I am realizing that one person I really thought I could talk to about it is in this category. There is absolutely no way he wants to hear about this right now. It's the last thing he'd care about. Oh, he might be polite and hear me out before changing the subject -- or he might not. But he wouldn't ask questions or offer advice or basically care.

This is the second realization in, oh, a few months. I clued in about another long-time friend a while back. This one is situational, temporary; the previous one is less striking but chronic.

They hurt, in the moment; I'm stung, and I feel angry. But then I start to wonder about all sorts of related things. Can anything give me the "right" to a particular person's friendship or support? Am I simply expecting too much? If not, am I a bad judge of people? Do I do for others the things I wished others would do for me? Am I seeing things that aren't there, and would these folks happily be supportive?

I honestly don't know. Maybe I'm going insane. But maybe it's the other way round: could be I was delusional before and now I'm more aware. I can't tell.

Comments

[tattermuffin.livejournal.com]

I think we all go through this over time - people we really want to be close to obviously aren't all that interested, people we've grown to trust seem to have grown away from us instead of closer, people we are always there for and want to be there for seem not to be giving as much as they're getting ...

You're not going insane, sounds to me like you're just suffering the pulls of the universe when friendships aren't in balance. It always hurts me too when I realize there's a disconnect where I'd really prefer a strong balance to be.

[aliceinfinland.livejournal.com]

Some people like the idea of being a certain kind of good, loyal, come-to-me-with-anything friend, but won't walk the walk when it comes down to it. I have learned that a declaration that I Will Be There For You, especially from someone you don't already know inside out, is a red flag that they probably won't, although they may expect the reverse, and will most likely expect you to treat them as if they had been a rock of support. I've never claimed to be that kind of friend. I know I'm a terrible flake and I'd rather underpromise and overdeliver. Or just underpromise.

Er, you were saying? About this job decision? Which is probably not such a make-or-break deal since you seem to be in demand, but if you want to work for a sekrit startup, now's your chance? Hold out for stock if you can.

[dpolicar]

My $0.02, not knowing the particulars.

Nope, you don't have a right to any particular person's friendship, but you get to decide what the price of yours is.
They don't get to enjoy the benefits of your friendship if they're unwilling to pay the price.
Expecting them to be interested in you and what's going on in your life is a perfectly reasonable price. Expecting that, and being hurt and bewildered when it's denied, is perfectly reasonable... to push my commercial metaphor a bit too far, it's like having a customer walk up to the counter and say "I'd like a cheese pizza for free, please." On one level, it's just an offer, to which the answer is "No". On another level, it's just _odd_, and makes you reexamine your assumptions and wonder if _you're_ the one who's wrong. At least, that's how it is for me.

All that said, if you value the relationship, it might be a good idea to let the person know that they are "in arrears," as it were. Not so much to demand a level of involvement if they aren't interested in providing it, but to let them know that their current level of involvement is inadequate to current conditions, so they can make an informed decision about whether to increase it or not. And if they aren't going to, to let you know, so you can make an informed decision about where to go from there.

All of which is pretty obvious, but sometimes it's hard to see the obvious when it's one's own life, so I figured I'd toss in a couple of pennies.

[airporter.livejournal.com]

It's perhaps a silly question, but did you speak to these people about the issues you needed to discuss before your realization?

If you haven't, then you may be doing yourself and the others a disservice - you really can't know if they're interested or supportive without communications.

If, on the other hand, you've talked with them and been given the brush, I'd strongly recommend talking with other friends. Some of them might not have similar histories as the person you wanted to talk with, but you know they'll listen.

You don't appear to be a bad judge of people, in my opinion. People change, and you're perceptions will change as the people you're around change and grow. Friends do change over time.

The ones that keep your best interests at heart, that listen, are friends.

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

You're not insane, it's very common, unfortunately common, to have the feeling of be way overspent in the friend bank.

I'm going through a variety of examples of that in my own life, and I know that some of it is rational, and I know that some of it is irrational, and there's a whole bunch in the middle where I can't tell if it's rational or it's irrational, and it's got me brains akimbo. Not that I'm requesting sympathy here, just trying to say "Yeah, it sucks, and it's confusing, and frustrating, and painful, and gah."

In the end, though, you have a right to seek friends (partners, too) who will meet your needs, and those needs (at least, my needs, and I suspect yours) include a certain amount of being willilng to trade a bit of sympathetic, understanding listening. And, as I've found myself, if the people in your life aren't meeting your needs, and won't, sometimes there's no other solution save to go find some who will. Doesn't make it fun, or easy, but it's the best I got. :/

[wcg.livejournal.com]

I don't know that I'd call it a right, but I think it's reasonable to expect a certain amount of attention from a friend. If their own situation is currently overwhelming they might not have much to spare by way of time, but even so, they could take a moment to be supportive.

Beyond that CJ, I'm too far from the situation to be able to give you any good insight. But I hope you know you're always welcome to write to me if you want to bounce a thought off me.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think that's what's going on -- no malice, no one's evil, there's just a balance I wish were different.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I'd rather underpromise and overdeliver. Or just underpromise.

I'm chuckling. I think this is true of me as well -- I don't want to promise the moon. Maybe it's just that I get very hung up about promises.

now's your chance? Hold out for stock if you can.

Yes, I think you're right that this is a good chance for me, and they are offering stock as part of the deal. The more I think about it the more I am leaning toward accepting it.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Nope, you don't have a right to any particular person's friendship, but you get to decide what the price of yours is.

Absolutely true. I can be disappointed that the balance is off, but if I stick with it knowing what the deal is, I really can't go blaming anyone but me for accepting the deal.

"I'd like a cheese pizza for free, please." On one level, it's just an offer, to which the answer is "No". On another level, it's just _odd_, and makes you reexamine your assumptions and wonder if _you're_ the one who's wrong.

Yes! :-) That's it exactly! I'm looking at my own mind and saying "am I the one who's nuts?"

All that said, if you value the relationship, it might be a good idea to let the person know that they are "in arrears," as it were.

Right. I'm... bad at that, except with people I'm very close to. People I'm close to will know the score, if not immediately, then when we have a chance to talk; people I'm not close to can probably be fairly confused about the state of the CJ, and that's not something I'm proud of.

sometimes it's hard to see the obvious when it's one's own life

Amen brother!

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

*nod* I think one of the reasons I'm sensitive to the concept of "overspent in the friend bank" is that I know several people who feel that way right now. You've got some of it and my mom's got some of it, and I'm thus noticing patterns more easily than I otherwise might.

there's a whole bunch in the middle where I can't tell if it's rational or it's irrational, and it's got me brains akimbo.

Exactly. That's exactly it. (and, *hugs*. Frustrating.)

And, as I've found myself, if the people in your life aren't meeting your needs, and won't, sometimes there's no other solution save to go find some who will. Doesn't make it fun, or easy, but it's the best I got.

Right. After, of course, letting the person know what's up (if I value the friendship). Sometimes, moving on is just... reality.

[quasigeostrophy.livejournal.com]

I don't know about the friend to whom you refer, but even with what's going on here at the moment, my inbox (or if you want/need me on chat) is always open. You've done a lot for me as a virtual ear and wise friend - it's only fair. :-) *hugs*

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Not yet, in the current case. Trouble with an acute communication problem is that it's often hard to communicate about it too. (But never fear, I value that person way more than enough to talk about it when we have the chance.)

If you haven't, then you may be doing yourself and the others a disservice

A very good point, and one I sometimes need to be kicked in the head with. :-)

People change.... Friends do change over time.

Yeah. It doesn't mean anyone is evil, or that I'm a victim, or that someone's malicious or stupid. It just happens. Doesn't make it particularly FUN of course.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Aw, thanks! :-) You've been there for me, too. If anything I'm the one in arrears! Thanks for all the times you've been supportive. *hugsback*

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah -- y'know what part of this is? Part of this is me being childish and *always* wanting a friend to be ready to listen fully to *me* when *my* life is in turmoil. Sometimes that doesn't happen, because sometimes BOTH people are in turmoil. That happens. And I don't like it: WAAAH. :-)

Thank you for the offer of the ear. You've always been there to offer an ear, and I appreciate that very much. (In the case of the job thing, I think I wrote it all already in my previous post. I'm just... I make decisions by talking, I guess!)

[wcg.livejournal.com]

I'll go back and look at your earlier post.

I've been mostly unable to read LJ for the last couple of months. The machine I used to use for checking it from work got an upgrade to its net nanny software that blocks LJ, so I've been posting via e-mail and not reading the friends page at all. Today I'm lucky enough to be using another machine that can (still) get to LJ, so I happened to see this.

That's all by way of saying that I haven't been reading your posts recently. But it doesn't mean I don't care.

[airporter.livejournal.com]

A very good point, and one I sometimes need to be kicked in the head with.

I would never kick you in the head, hon. NERF baseball bats are more fun!

Doesn't make it particularly FUN of course.

Agreed, regretfully.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

*nod* I hear ya. There are lots of reasons for not reading LJ, few of which are "don't care". :-)

[airporter.livejournal.com]

That's not childish - it's human.

Adding 'talks through decisions' to my confirmed image of you. It fits, too!

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Or those big plastic hammers with accordion-pleated heads that make squeaky noises when they hit! I had one of those as a child and I had all but forgotten it until now.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I *so* talk through decisions. In fact, for a somewhat-introvert, I talk a LOT. :-)

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

Your friends are all very smart and have said sensible things!

I know what you mean and it sucks. In particular because it's so hard to tell someone, "You have to ask me questions, you have to want to know what I have to say," because it sounds so conceited. But it's not. It's really not. If they don't care, why are they friends with you?

If it's a temporary thing, of course, it could just be that that person is temporarily in too much stuff themselves to have cycles to spare for others. At which point you know where you are in the priority list, but it doesn't mean they won't start caring more about what's going on with you again in a month or so.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Right: if they truly don't care, there's not a lot of point. The temporary type of thing is in a sense the most informative (I know what trumps "CJ's job search stress") and the easiest to understand and live with (I'd be a rotten friend myself if I didn't understand that some things trump me).

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

Right, so hey: what's the deal with the job? ;)

Not that I will have any advice, as I am the worst about job stuff.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Most of it is in my previous post. It's a small startup; I think I'd be employee number fourteen or so. Good culture, friendly people, lots of things to learn (that last is a positive as well as a makes-nervous). Likely high-stress at times; it's a startup. Very little C and C++ coding (some, but little); that's the thing I'm a bit sad about. I'd be in Java or Ruby on Rails a lot of the time. But some embedded work, some web technology, good people... The salary's reasonable, neither scarily high nor lowballing, and there's some stock.

My low self-confidence is jumping in and saying "But now you have to live up to whatever they saw in the interview! You could just walk away with a compliment instead of seeing whether it's real! Panic! Self-Doubt!" At least my brain knows I'm not at a high point in confidence right now, so I can sort of talk myself down from a little of this.

I too am the worst about job stuff. I never know what to do! I have to ask all my friends. :-)

How are you doing jobwise, by the way? Haven't heard from you on that score for a while.

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

Eh, I was working till recently, but I'm starting school at the beginning of August, which makes it harder. Also, up until like 3 days ago I had a project from next week till the end of July, but 3 days ago it fell through, so I need to look again. Bleh.

Ignore the low self-confidence. If it doesn't work out, it will just not work out. People expect the first few months to be a sort of trying-each-other-out experience.

But I bet it will work out.

For me the question would be, do you want that high-stress startup situation. Some people do, some don't.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Oo yeah, school. I bet it's hard to find a project to fit just precisely the timespan you have left. Bummer that that other one fell through. I hope you find a good one. And I know looking is just plain no fun. :-( Good luck.

I think I'll do okay on the high-stress startup situation *if* I reach a point where I'm confident I am good at the stuff I am doing. That'll be the key: feeling like I'm doing my share of the work and doing it well. If not, it'll be the bad kind of stress.

[firecat]

You don't have the "right" to someone else's time and energy, but you most definitely have every right to feel disappointed if you hoped/expected someone would be there for you and they aren't. Feelings aren't really about rights, they're about hopes and wants, which are entirely valid.

I know how it feels to believe, if I am disappointed by someone, that this means I am a bad judge of people and that I "should have known" I wouldn't be able to get what I wanted from that person. Whenever a friend or lover disappoints me, I go beat myself up about it, as if being disappointed isn't enough! What's that about?

I don't think "I should have known" is a good thing for me to believe without skepticism, because I've noticed that if I act on that belief, I withdraw from people more than is ideal, and then I don't get access to the support that *is* available because I don't realize it's there.

You're not insane - or at least there's nothing in the above post that makes me think you're insane.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

True enough, feelings aren't about rights. A good point. Of course, a bit of rational thought about rights can help mute or ameliorate some feelings.

Whenever a friend or lover disappoints me, I go beat myself up about it, as if being disappointed isn't enough! What's that about?

*laughter* When you put it that way, it does seem a bit silly!

Thanks.

[firecat]

Of course, a bit of rational thought about rights can help mute or ameliorate some feelings.

I'm glad it works that way for you. It sometimes works that way for me but only if I also allow the feelings a chance to have a say. Also I know people for whom it doesn't work that way at all, and I'm glad I'm not them.

[kimatha.livejournal.com]

Ever get to the point when you really want to talk to a person about something and you realize he doesn't want to hear about it?

Sometimes i get insights about people where I suddenly understand stuff like this. This thing, or "he's always so hostile about X because Y," or "it doesn't matter how you phrase it, she's always going to do X."

Some things take longer to understand than others. And sometimes things change over time, too, and then you're surprised, especially if a change sneaks up on you. My dad, who has traditionally been a classic Type-A personality, surprised the hell out of me a few days ago when he made a very Zen-like comment about how it's important to enjoy each experience as it happens.

You're not insane. You are observing and learning as circumstances evolve. I think all your other comments on friendship reflect what I would say about that, so I won't reinvent the wheel there. :)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Sometimes i get insights about people where I suddenly understand stuff like this. This thing, or "he's always so hostile about X because Y," or "it doesn't matter how you phrase it, she's always going to do X."

Yes! It can really help to have some of these insights, too. When I hear that my mother was considering doing [foo] and she got viciously attacked for it over the dinner table, it helps to realize that the attacker got burned badly once by doing [almost-foo]. My mother was able to respond calmly without counterattacking, and I'm able to not be mad at the person for attacking my mom. :-)

And sometimes things change over time, too

Right. People aren't static. Sometimes it's confusing when I think I get close to understanding and then *boom* things are all different, but it's the way we are. I bet your jaw dropped to the floor when you heard that from your dad!

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

It works particularly well for me when I'm feeling whiney about not getting something I think I "should" get. When I realize "should" doesn't really enter into it, at least not quite that way, then all I have left is the disappointment, not the EXTRA angst about being disrespected or my friend being evil or life being unfair or what-have-you.

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

I was scared to death Monday because I was greeted with a lot of "Oh, I've heard so much about you!" from lots of people. But I've been astounded at how it's coming back to me as I'm poking around, and even with all the buildup no one has seemed to expect me to be prefect.

Hmmm, I think I'll leave the typo there :-D

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, most sane people will expect a bit of adjustment at the beginning! :-)

[sunnydale47.livejournal.com]

Like Bill, I haven't been reading LJ at all for a couple of weeks, for a variety of reasons -- some very good reasons, and a couple of lousy ones. But be that as it may I came back to find this post, and I want to respond even though I haven't read the prior ones yet. I'm sorry I haven't been around for any of those.

I think we've all been through that with friends -- I know I sure have. But while you don't have the right to have support from a particular person, you certainly do have a right to expect it from a very close friend. As the song says, that's what friends are for.

Has this been a mutually supportive friendship in the past? Is it more than a friendship? Is this person going through something in his own life that reduces the amount of energy he has to deal with difficult situations?

Have you asked for support? Men are notoriously poor at realizing things like that. Their orientation is not support, but fixing the problem. Often, if they can't solve it for you, they tune out because they feel there's nothing at all they can do ... just being supportive often doesn't occur to them. You might have to say something on the order of "I don't expect -- or even want -- you to solve this problem for me. But I would like you to listen and just be supportive of me while I try to solve it."

If you haven't said anything like that, try it. If you have, and he's still unable, unwilling or uninterested in being there for you, then perhaps your relationship with this person has problems that you didn't realize are there. When you have your new job and things have settled down, you might want to have a conversation and explore the issues. Sadly, friends -- even very close friends -- do sometimes drift apart, and sometimes friendships -- even long term ones -- need to be ended.

I had a friend since my early teens who was my oldest (in longevity) friend. But she became less and less supportive, and by the time we were in our late 30s, I didn't feel any positive vibes from her at all. We lived a couple of hundred miles apart, so we didn't see each other much, but we were still friends until finally there was an incident where I felt she was being so disresectful and discourteous to me that I realized it the friendship was in negative territory, costing me more than I was getting out of it, and that it was time to end it. It was very painful, but I did. I still think about her once in awhile, but I've had twenty years now to reflect on it, and I'm very sure I made the right choice.

I'm not suggesting that's what you should do! What my friend did went far beyond not being supportive -- it actually undermined me. I'm only saying that friendships do wane for one reason or another, and that if you've been clear about what you want from him and he doesn't seem interested in providing it, then it might be time to have a talk about what you each expect from each other.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

The acute one has indeed been supportive in the past, and yeah, he's going through (I could be uncharitable and say he has created, it would be spot-on but unkind) some drama of his own right now. Needing/wanting support of his own, of course. That's pretty much the entirety of my whiney-feeling in this post: I want support right now and the timing's bad. Poor Me.

The long-term one... I'm realizing, the more I read these comments and think about what friendship means to me, that I want to remain friends with this person but at a less close level. It's simply been imbalanced for a long time. So I'll reach out a little less, instigate getting together a little less, and leave it at that.

I'm also seeing places where the imbalance might be going the other way. I'll make an effort to call or e-mail those people to set up a lunch or ask how they're doing.

[wooddragon.livejournal.com]

That is what I was going to say - sometimes, it's just bad timing. Maybe both of you have issues you're tussling over and it's hard for both of you to feel you got fair 'air time.' Which doesn't make it any less disappointing...

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah. And as it turns out, this one came out better than I expected. I did get my air time, and so did he, and by now we're both in much calmer states anyway. MAN it is such a relief to have the job thing settled!

[wooddragon.livejournal.com]

I am so glad your 'job thing' came out so well. Having been in job hell recently, too, I know how emotionally debilitating and life-sucking it can be, so what a triumph to find something that looks good so quickly, after making the correct decision to change the previous situation.

I'm hoping your self-esteem will be right back where it should be shortly, if it isn't already.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thanks! My self-esteem is slowly climbing out of the pit I had dug for it. :-)