Veterinary thoughts

[cjsmith]

Thoughts, mostly for myself, but feel free to read 'em if you feel like it.

Difficulty

I have now heard from multiple sources that getting into a veterinary medicine program is harder than getting into (human-) med school. I don't know whether it "needs to be" harder in order to screen for the difficulty of the schooling itself, but there are certainly fewer schools available and fewer seats available. Yikes. I honestly am not sure I'm up for that level of challenge. Hell, I thought a lot of myself when I was coming out of high school and I was intimidated by it back then!

O'course, multiple sources could still be wrong. And it's possible that my utterly appalling undergraduate grades would mean a lot less now than they would have meant in 1989. I will work like crazy to kick some serious butt on the entrance exams (GRE, MCAT, whatever, I'll do what needs doing) and I will work like crazy to get good grades in the preparatory undergraduate courses I know I need.

I suspect once I'm in I'll be okay. I may not graduate top in my class; I'm not twenty, I'm not perfectly healthy, I've already pulled all the all-nighters I want to pull in this lifetime, I may have a significant commute to and from school, and I don't have somebody else footing the bill. But I won't be last in my class either. If I get in, I believe I can become a good AND competent veterinarian. I'm also ethical enough that if I can't become competent I'll stop. But that first step is a doozy.

Squeamishness

Long-time readers, remember that bit about passing out when giving blood? That bit about feeling woozy when my doctor described the laparoscopic surgery I was going to get? That bit about having to go lie down when watching my cat get subcutaneous fluids? Um. As an employee evaluation might put it, "this area needs work."

On the other hand, many people have assured me that this is the kind of thing that can be overcome. My gynecologist, who is also a surgeon, assures me he used to get woozy. My aunt Helen, a registered nurse, passed out cold at the first surgery she attended. (Hit her head hard if I remember the story right. Nobody was watching the students; they were quite rightly watching the surgeon and his patient.) These people went on to have long and fine careers in medicine. It can be done.

On the other other hand I don't exactly look forward to it.

Commitment

When people ask me about my desire to do this, the best answer I can give them is that it's obvious this is what I should have done the first time around.

Perhaps that means I owe it to myself to try. BUT.

Rob and I, as a couple, come first.

I can't guarantee I'll get into any of my top few choices of schools. ANY school I attend will mean selling the house, moving, Rob drastically changing or even dumping his flight instructor career and improvising some way he can make money in aviation or out of it, and years of me pulling eighty-hour weeks and stressing out a lot. He's said he'll be supportive of whichever decision I make, but I must also in good conscience take a look at what that will cost him. If it costs us each other, directly or indirectly, that's too high a price. If managed badly, I know that that could indeed be the price. Caution required.

I also won't be able to keep going with the high-tech career for very much longer if I head down this path. A year, sure; I'll be studying, taking a class or two, volunteering. More than two years... very unlikely. I'll be in classes AND studying for the entrance exams AND working at a clinic (if I can) AND trying to figure out in which state I'll need to establish residency, and maybe even going there while Rob sells the house. So my current career will get ditched early in the process, long before I know I'll succeed on the new path. It could get picked up again, although re-buying the house (if already sold) would be a bit of a toughie.

It all kind of feels like a leap off a cliff.

On the other hand, damn if it isn't exciting. Rob, I'm sorry, I really am.

*sigh*

So far I'm giving it somewhere around a 35% chance I'll make the leap. That's probably higher than it's been before.

Comments

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

Life is short, and full of regrets. I know you're giving every aspect its due consideration. I'm over here, sort of handwaving, hoping that whatever conclusion you come to, it'll be right for you, and for you and Rob. And as your friend, I'm ready to support whatever decision you make (for what that's worth :)).

My two cents? I've jumped off a couple of cliffs, and never regretted it. I've also learned to let go of whatever regrets I have, and that's helped.

And that's not necessarily helpful, but it's all I've got.

That, and "Go *you*!!!"

:)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thanks! One other answer I give when people ask how much I want to do this is that if it weren't for Rob, the decision would already be made. I'd be trying for it. (Not that I'd necessarily finish the process. But it'd be easier to give it a go, knowing that I might possibly bail out, if all I were messing with would be me.) One big hard part, though, is that when you've got more to lose, a cliff jump requires more thought. :)

Thanks for the handwaving, and the support, and... yeah. That. :)

[quasigeostrophy.livejournal.com]

I have some thoughts on all this that might be easier to express one-on-one. Talk to me sometime. :-)

I will say at least that I agree with this sentiment, but it's not necessarily bad: It all kind of feels like a leap off a cliff.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Over the next few months, and few years if I go for it, I will probably be talking to you until you are mighty tired of me. :-) Thanks.

[allanh.livejournal.com]

Have you thought about volunteering at one of the local SPCAs to get more of a feel for what vets (or at least vet assistants) go through?

Just a thought.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yes indeed; I've not only thought about it, but it will be mandatory. (Either at an animal shelter, a veterinary clinic, or both.) That's a good chunk of the time that will go into preparing me to apply to vet school.

[takhisis.livejournal.com]

My impression is that it's terribly hard to get in, but then I was applying at one of the premier vet schools in the country (U.C. Davis). I ended up not choosin that as a major due to squeamishness factor, so I understand that. BUT! One thing that was told to me that is kind of sneaky that I have remembered since then... depending on the school, they often have a cap on people entering as a particular major but then once you are in for any reason, you only have class caps to content with. Meanin, if you apply as Undeclared or as an alternate major (say, English or Computer Science), you can spend your first semester/trimester getting general requirements out of the way (classes you'd have to take no matter what your major was) and then you can usually transfer over into the Vet Med program without most of the hassle you'd have in applying as an undergrad, since you are already accepted as a student of the university. Then you only have to contend with fighting to get one of the limited class spots when you register.

This was also as cominin as a frosh, so I don't know if it would apply to coming in as a transfer student or a grad student, depending on what you've already done.

[lrc.livejournal.com]

Vet Med is a graduate program. You don't transfer in from an undergrad program.

I started out my college career pre-vet at UCD. I realized that I didn't want to live in Davis for 8 years, nor did I want to work as hard as getting into vet school would require.


CJ, do you know farmount? She did vet med at Davis.

Davis does have the advantages of an airport nearby, and I assume that housing is still cheap in the surrounding towns.

[ashiegrrrl.livejournal.com]

Good luck with whatever you decide!

*hugs*

You'll be great with whatever you do.

If it costs us each other, directly or indirectly, that's too high a price.
I made a choice to make sure I didn't lose Beloved. I left school and moved. Was it the right choice? I don't know. Maybe we could have made a LDR work for 2-3 years while I finished school. I didn't think I could do it. It took me 2 years puttering around being unhappy in school to change schools and get back on track with a similar program I was in. I'm rambling, I guess in short I mean that I understand, lol.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I hear you. It's a toughie. *hugsback*

[ladyqkat.livejournal.com]

There was a young lady I met in alt.callahans who finally fulfilled her dream of becoming a vet. A lot of hard work, a lot of time in intense study and a very happy lass now. If you can check out ladysprite and maybe she can give you some pointers. I think a couple of your other friends know her as well.

Good luck whatever you decide. For my part I have only had regrets over things I didn't try.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I think someone else mentioned her as well. I should go introduce myself.

I too have had regrets over things I didn't try. I guess the worst that can happen is I try and don't make it -- and that, much as I won't like it, is something I can live through.

[jcgbigler.livejournal.com]

If you & Rob found the house you're in now, there's no reason you won't be able to find another one when you need to. And this time around, you've got more life experience, more money in the bank, and a lot more perspective.

A parable I invented years ago when I had another friend in a similar situation tells of two men walking down an unfamiliar path. They come to a fork, and neither one knows which way to go. One of them stops at the fork to gather data, trying to figure out which way to go. He analyzes the footprints, wind direction, flora and fauna, and after four hours, he thinks one direction looks more favorable than the other.

Meanwhile, the second man shrugs his shoulders, picks one of the paths, and starts walking. After two hours, it's clear that he has gone the wrong way, so he turns around and walks back to the fork.

At the end of the four hours, both men are once again at the fork. Only one of them knows for certain which way is right--the one who chose incorrectly the first time.

So jump off that cliff! It's the only way to be sure.

[rfrench.livejournal.com]

It's certainly possible to sell the house and then come back and buy a new one, but it has two major disadvantges: 1) you lose a lot of money selling a house in commissions and repairs and whatnot and don't get that back and 2) The way California property tax works you get a big hit when you buy a new house. I would find it hard to believe we would decide to come back to the Bay Area and buy a new house after having lived elsewhere. The cost difference is just too huge.

[evilegg.livejournal.com]

Good link for questions they ask durinf vet college interviews:
http://grove.ufl.edu/~prevet/interviews.htm


Pre-professional Requirements for Admission to the College of Veterinary Medicine.*

A. Biology -- a minimum of 15 semester credits including two semesters of Animal Biology or Zoology (lecture and laboratory), 1 semester of Genetics, and one semester of Microbiology (lecture and laboratory).
B. Chemistry -- a minimum of 19 semester credits including two semesters of Inorganic Chemistry (general and qualitative), (lecture and laboratory), 2 semesters of Organic Chemistry (lecture and laboratory), and 1 semester of Biochemistry.
C. Physics -- a minimum of 8 semester credits including 2 semesters of lecture and laboratory.
D. Mathematics -- a minimum of 6 semester credits. One semester of Calculus and 1 semester of Statistics.
E. Animal Science -- a minimum of 6 semester credits. One semester of Introduction to Animal Science and 1 semester of Animal Nutrition.
F. Humanities -- a minimum of 9 semester credits.
G. Social Science -- a minimum of 6 semester credits.
H. English -- a minimum of 6 semester credits, including two semesters of English Composition.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Vet School is INSANE. We had LOTS of vet school friends in Gainesville. We saw them about every six weeks during the school year.
The only way to get through it is to really believe that there is nothing else on earth you can be happy doing, because after you have your arm shoved up a cow's ass, reek of pig piss, and still have to go to the lab to study xrays all night, you better be having the time of your life.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link and the info! Aw dangit, I forgot genetics. I'll have to snag a semester of that as well.

A lot of this I have, a few are things I don't have but will vary from school to school (Colorado doesn't require Animal Nutrition for example), and the rest I'll have to get. I figure it'll be two years of course work.

Definitely insane. The two veterinarians (ok, one still a student) I've exchanged e-mail with so far have given me an overview of approximately how insane. I never thought I'd be grateful for having worked at startups, but I am now, because at least I know I can pull eighty-hour weeks for months if I have to.

[msmichelle.livejournal.com]

I agree with the mentioned suggestion to volunteer at a shelter, humane society...something to not only "get your feet wet" but also show your deeper interest on a grad school app.
I have heard the coursework is a bit more involved than med school, only because your studying bovine, feline, canine, etc., etc.
I think it's hard to get in. My old apartment manager applied and got in. During the "waiting to hear" stage, he was very tense about what he said was the lack of spots (back in 1999 at UW-Madison)...he even made some comment about how he perceived it to be tougher for him because he does not fit any gender or racial equity thing...I think he was just complaining/nervous though.
What I did see in the paper a few weeks back, is that large animal vets are in demand. I am not sure if that's the way you want to go with a vet career? Maybe a sub speciality? I didn't read the full article or really know much beyond the need part (eg: does that specialty have more openings in vet school? unsure).

At any rate, I think your life experience, military experience, work experience, etc. etc. bodes well for your application! My friend just decided to get another Master's & dropped his work hours to 20/week. I'm not sure if any phase of vet school allows for that, (he's just doing a one year programming masters, and already has a comp sci masters so he's not doing anything nearly as grueling) but maybe a paid internship or something could supplement?

If I ever pursued a master's, I'd definitely want to be in a position to afford it, so I hear you there.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely - I should make clear that shelter / humane society / veterinary clinic work is required for application to all vet schools I have looked at so far. They're no dummies. :-)

There's definitely a lot more breadth in the course work. On the other hand, there's less depth. We don't prolong life or fight the nearly-unbeatable in animals like we do in humans; we don't study kitty Alzheimer's or what a horse's lungs look like if he's smoked all his life; that sort of thing. On the other other hand, finding a vein in a rat has got to be a really finicky thing to learn...

Eh. Worst I can do is not get in.

[cassidyrose.livejournal.com]

I can only speak to the squeamishness part. My sister has worked as a vet tech and a zoo keeper. Her first day interning as a zoo keeper she was asked "Are you squeamish?" and she said, tentatively, "Um, no" wanting to make a good impression. She was then handed a frozen rabbit and a pair of scissors and was told to cut it in half for the snakes. Yeah, ick. However, that was pretty minor compared to all the stuff she has seen and done over the years. All I can say is that I don't think she inherently was un-squeamish, she just got used to her profession and what came with it and dealt with it. Zoo keepers are one the least squeamish bunches of people I have ever met. Be wary when they offer to show you their pictures. Who knew people photographed animal surgeries? ::shudder::

Also, ptor is someone who passed out more than once while having blood drawn, but somehow was able to work as a surgical orderly and watched a good chunk of my c-section (what he could see from the head of the table, around all the medical staff). Again, I think we just adjust to our circumstances.

I wish you the best in whatever you decide. It sounds very exciting and it is wonderful to hear you talk about the possibilities.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

*schnort* Well, I guess she isn't squeamish by now! :-)

Funny how there's a lot of stuff I am completely unsqueamish about. I could do the rabbit thing because it is already dead. (I'd have trouble if it were a cat, though. Darn those soft spots of mine.) I can clean up a carcass that's in the maggoty stage and I can shovel shit. But sticking a teeny tiny needle in an animal that's alive used to put me in woozy city, and for anything but subcutaneous injections it still will. Hopefully I'll adjust....

[lesliepear.livejournal.com]

I think you are very brave to pursue this - I once thought of being a vet but a visit to Cornell's vet school and seeing a surgery ended that (I was maybe about 12 at the time).

Would your feet work for such a career - there'd probably be a lot of lifting and standing?

Would a vet tech job be an alternative with less studying?

Just some thoughts...

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, watching open heart surgery on a *television* was bad enough when I was ten or so. I would have to adapt. There's absolutely no way I could be effective in any animal-medicine-related role unless I got over that.

My feet would be a problem during portions of school, but once I'm out I can do things to accommodate them pretty well.

Yes, a vet tech job would be an alternative with less studying, but it also means less pay. I wouldn't do well (in the areas Rob and I have looked at so far) on a vet tech salary. O'course, I haven't looked deeply into that. I may have seen starting salaries only.

[juverna.livejournal.com]

Career-wise, I've never made that leap. So, (A) I totally sympathize with all the reasons not to. Some of them are very real and true reasons, such as the effect on one's partner/family/etc.

And yet, (B) I so root for people to do what is calling out to them in life... I think, if one can, it is so permanently good for the soul.

So basically, either way, you have my support! And, either way, you rock.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I hear ya. (A) and financial, my word, financial. I am very lucky on that front: my choice is between continuing with a lucrative career or wiping out every cent of savings I have. For many, the choice would probably be between a balanced budget and a staggering debt load that would run for a decade or more.

It looks really stupid until I start to think again about (B). (wry smile)

Thank you!

[lkeele.livejournal.com]

I would have thought it would be relatively easy for Rob to be a flight instructor wherever you end up -- there are small airports and schools in every town I've ever lived, no matter how small. We've got one here, even, and we only have about 17,000 people in town. I'm most likely missing something, though, being the ignoramus I am. :)

Luck, my dear, luck, no matter what you choose. Most, bestest, strongest luck making the decision, because I know that after the decision is made, you'll kick ass at whatever you put your mind to.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thank you! :-)

Flight instructor: Here, you can charge money for it, because people have some. He can instruct anywhere he likes, and in most areas of the country it will maybe buy him a pair of shoes. (OK, I'm exaggerating, but that's the general gist.)

[redgrrl.livejournal.com]

You are awesome regardless of what you do! Lots of people never seriously reconsider "what might have been."

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I wonder how hard it would be for many people to reconsider. Me, I have some savings and I have no kids, and at that, going this route would wipe out every dollar I've saved since day one. There are days I think I'm phenomenally stupid for thinking about it.

[lizzie-omalley.livejournal.com]

A couple of years ago I left a reasonably (by my standards) lucrative job with the state of CO to go back to the professional track I had intended to take 20 years ago.

Yes, it was rather like leaping off a cliff. I took a couple of years worth of courses at the local community college to fill in gaps that I had in the undergrad degree including things like intro to Chem and Physics and basic Calculus. I knew at the time I wanted to take a masters program but I didn't know whether I wanted to do this in Environmenatal Science or in Education. Where I wanted to end up was as an environmental educator. In the end I opted for education because this gives me a certification to teach middle school science if I am not able to get into the field of environmental education with parks, museums or nature centers and I would rather be teaching than doing field biology.

Unlike you, I had no savings and so part of the leap off the cliff included taking on a rather large debt load in the form of student loans. At the moment I am working as an intern through the Student Conservation Association as an Environmental Educator at a National Wildlife Refuge.

I am incredibly glad that I took that leap even in the dark, cold hours of the night when I am scared to death that I will not be able to pay my loans back and that I will be paying them off on Social Security. (I turn 51 this Nov.) The thing came down to could I stand to do this (the state) job for another 13 years until I had reached retirement and then do the EE thing as a part of retirement and I came up with the answer as a rather emphatic NO.

Now, education is a much easier thing to get into than Vet school so it did not have the high levels of uncertainty that your cliff has with respect to actually being allowed to take the path once one tries to jump for it but from one who lept, I think that it is worth the leap. My apologies for abusing the metaphor.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Wow, your experience is exactly the sort of thing I am envisioning and thinking about. You went from something that wasn't all that fulfilling, but was secure, to something that didn't look as good financially but was what you loved. And you're glad. That's absolutely wonderful. I am very happy to hear that!

(As for my levels of uncertainty, at least I get to find out close to the beginning of the journey rather than after I've spent all the time and money on education! That's a bit of luck, there.)

[bklyngirl.livejournal.com]

Do you have a "Plan B"? What I mean is, if you decide NOT to try the Vet School route, what would you do instead? Would you continue in your current career path? Would/could you be happy doing that?

It all sounds very scary - and thrilling. I admire your courage for even thinking about it seriously. I tend to be more of a reactive person, rather than pro-active. The one leap off a cliff I took was taking in Sean - and I have to say that with all the complications it was still one of the best decisions I ever made. That's not to say that all leaps turn out that well but... I wish I had some wise advise for you. The one thing I do know is that if you do decide to go for it, there is no doubt in my mind that you will do a great job!

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

A very good question. I don't have any other Plan B except staying in this career. I used to be... happy enough, or content, I suppose... in this career, but that was largely because I had fun hobbies that helped reduce stress. Those hobbies were: running, hiking, backpacking, and square dancing. (I'm sure that of all my readers, you are the one who instantly gets where I'm going with this.) Once those hobbies went away, I had to face the fact that what was left wasn't a great life for me.

I'd really like to have another Plan B. Vet school is a thin thread to hang all my hopes on.

SEAN! That's his name! Thank you -- I hadn't gone back in your journal to go figure that out, but despite having forgotten his name, I was wondering about that young man. How is he doing??

[jupiter29.livejournal.com]

That definitely does sound like it would be quite a leap. So I can understand why it is both exciting and scary. :) And since I knew next to nothing about your life, I won't even try to advise on what you should do.

But I do think it's a great thing that you are thinking it all through. It sucks to go through life wondering if you should have done something different. Not so much if you COULD have. I can think of a hundred jobs I could have done or choices I could have made. But luckily the only that I sometimes wonder if I really should have done, I tried for a year. It just wasn't right. Maybe if I'd stuck with it for two more, the result would have been different. I still wonder about that, but now it's more curiosity than regret. By the time that year had gone by, I knew I couldn't afford the two more to find out if I could do it well. So I have no regrets.

That's my only real advice, I guess. Get all the information you possibly can and then decide what you want to do, based on how it would affect your life now. If you make the right choice for the right reasons today, I think you'll live with it a lot better no matter what happens down the line.

Above and beyond all of that, that's seriously cool you're looking into all this stuff and I appreciate the opportunity to look over your shoulder, figuratively speaking. I'm excited for you! If it's not too far out of line, (*hugs*)!

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Y'know, that's a really good point. I think just having had the opportunity to think it all through is a blessing. Even if for whatever reasons(s) I can't go for it, I'll have had this chance to examine the possibilities and see why it would or wouldn't work.

Thoughts forwarded from a vet student

[oddhack.livejournal.com]

I have a friend who's in her third year of vet school at NCSU; mentioned some generalities about your interest in it and she had this to say:

An added comment about applying to vet school for your friend-of-a-friend.
It's a lot harder for someone who's been out of school for a while
because there's no slow transition into the classes (testified by the few
middle-aged vet students I've known, including a classmate in her 40s).
It's just a "welcome to vet school" slam of information. Also, NOTHING
can properly prepare someone for the demands of vet school. I knew it'd
be tough, and had researched vet school for almost my entire young life,
but still had no real clue what it was really like until I started. There
are many who question their choice at least once after starting. I
questioned it my first year at least once a month, then found my wind and
motivation to keep sludging along after I landed my first summer
internship at the University of Michigan.

AFAICT, she manages what little non-school life she has by going without much sleep - easier when you're 23 years old as she is. She expects to have a life again after graduation. Just now she's recovering from being stepped on by a cow whose rectum she was palpating :-)

Re: Thoughts forwarded from a vet student

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info! I'm sure the transition will be abrupt and dramatic, even though I'll have to go back to school for a year or more(?) just to get ready to apply. Fortunately, I do think that working at a high-tech startup and logging hundred-hour weeks might partially prepare me for the work load -- that and being in the Army, where I've pulled my most consecutive all-nighters. But she's got a really good point and I'm glad to get this information. I need to stay conscious of the fact that this would/will be seriously consuming, for four years. Right now I'm spoiled. My last all-nighter was in February.