Car Wish List

[cjsmith]

What I want in a car. This is mostly for my own reference.

[LJ_CUT TEXT="Here you may clicky to see how I'm picky"]

CLIMATE CONTROL

- Heat and air conditioning controls should trigger the heater or air conditioner, and do only that. No weird interlocks with a "defrost" button or something.
- When I direct airflow to certain vents, the airflow should be directed, and only that. No weird interlocks with the heater or something.
- Side vents near the door should be able to be closed. Fully closed. I hate drafts.
- Recirc is a must. No weird interlocks with the vents or the heater, no "recirc only exists when the fan is on", none of that crap. I require a recirc control that switches cabin-air intake from the outdoors to the indoors and does only that.

STUPIDITY

- No timer turning the rear window defrost off for me!
- No locking or unlocking anything on the car except by direct user command!

LIGHTS

- Ideally, hazard lights would be easy to use and easy to stop using again. Most newer cars I've seen seem to pass this test.
- No headlights that are technically legal but make me an asshole on the road. Sorry. Nobody wants to see cars like that coming at them, and I don't want to be the kind of consumer who will buy one.

SEATS AND VISIBILITY

- Headrests have to be either completely removable or completely comfortable for a short chick with a ponytail. This is not negotiable.
- I must be able to see all dashboard indicators. It's incredible how many cars fail this test.
- I must be able to see well enough out the rear left and rear right, by turning my head and looking out the windows, to feel safe changing lanes.

SEAT BELT

- Sure would be nice if I'd stop getting red scrapes on my neck from the seat belt.
- No automatic seat belts. Cars made in 1990 are right out.
- Sure would be nice if the physical layout of the seat and steering wheel put me that last quarter inch over the line so that I could legally disable an air bag. I don't want to be on the borderline.

CONVENIENCES

- Must be able to play cassettes and CDs.
- Must have at least one cup holder. I've seen cars that fail this test.
- Ideally, the rear seats should fold down for trunk access.
- Intermittent windshield wiper capability would be nice.
- Must have the ability to pop the trunk and the gas cap cover from the driver's seat. A keyfob whose trunk control is disabled when the key is in the ignition does not count.
- I don't prefer, but would be willing to put up with, electric locks.
- I don't prefer, but would be willing to put up with, electric windows.
- Automatic transmission. Snotty comments about this will be deleted -- this is MY wish list.

SIZE

- 4-seater. I don't want to be the kind of driver who says carpooling to lunch is someone else's problem.
- Must be able to fit in my small garage next to rfrench's Toyota Solara and leave room for me to open the door and get out. This puts me pretty solidly in the subcompact range; it means a four-door; it probably also precludes adding a right-side rearview mirror.
- Must have enough trunk space to fit all the square dance calling equipment. Ideally, would have as much trunk space as a 1989 Toyota Corolla. It's incredible how many cars (larger cars, even) fail this test.

HANDLING

- Sharp turning radius. I don't have a measurement on this, but most cars' inability to turn well can really piss me off after driving my Corolla.
- When I push the pedal it should go. Here's where my current car has trouble.
- When I push the other pedal it should stop. Early anti-lock braking systems would annoy me, so they're out.

Comments

[dafydd.livejournal.com]

... it probably also precludes adding a right-side rearview mirror.

I'm not aware of any compact or subcompact vehicles that include an option to forgoe (sp?) the right side mirror. I could be wrong, though.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I haven't researched it enough to know. I did look at California vehicle law, which requires a right side mirror if and only if the rear window is tinted. I know my 1989 Corolla came without the right side mirror. I know I've seen a few other cars on the road without a right side mirror. But I haven't the foggiest notion whether they're going to be easy to find, or whether any cars today can be purchased new in such a configuration.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Have you looked at a Saturn Ion?

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I haven't looked at anything yet. :-)

This does look interesting. According to automotive.com, the ION is less than an inch wider than a 2005 Corolla. Not bad. (That puts it at two inches wider than my current car.) Its curb-to-curb turning circle is better than the 2005 Corolla and its cargo capacity is also larger.

Not that I have my heart set on a new Corolla. I'm just using it as a convenient base for comparisons. :-)

I wonder if Saturn has fixed its finickiness about towing. Also wonder if a Saturn will ever last me sixteen years. Worth musing more.

Thanks!

[wcg.livejournal.com]

For the trailer thing, I'd call a local U-Haul dealer and ask their opinion. I remember when I was considering having a hitch put on my 95 Saturn SL and we instead decided to put one on my then parther's 95 Corolla. So yeah, I'm aware that it used to be a problem. But considering that Saturn offers trailer towing kits for the Ion, I'm guessing that the former problem has been fixed.

Looking at this (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=froogle&start=0&num=1&q=http://store.yahoo.com/hitches4less/20saioncli.html&fr=AEEFb5jKllrbidnoh3OlMZM84N-VLc58ma9jxewNRD83wbqje8u2Hz4AAAAAAAAAAA) it would seem that you can get a nice concealed hitch from Hitches For Less for $220.99.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Oops, I was unclear :-). I meant BEING towed. The early Saturns had to be flatbedded. They also couldn't use chains. I don't know their latest status on little finickinesses like that.

Never occurred to me to think of towing stuff with a subcompact car. Huh. Maybe I'd want to do such a thing someday -- I never know.

[just-cyd.livejournal.com]

good to know what you want, what you don't, and what's negotiable. i didn't have the foggiest clue what i really when i bought my sunfire in 2000 -- 2 door and manual transmission were my only true requirements. getting a sunroof was a nice bonus. but now, two door/five speed is sure something i wish i DIDN'T have.

Good luck in your search! I will say the automatic Sunfires were zippy little things, and they do make a 4-door version. no clue if it'll pass any other tests.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I also had no clue what I really wanted when I bought this car. At the time I wanted CHEAP. In the last sixteen years I've thought up a few other things. :-)

Do you still have the Sunfire? Why don't you like 2-door/manual now?

[just-cyd.livejournal.com]

yup, i've still got the sunfire; loving that sunroof right now!

a 2-door car makes it a challenge to take people and stuff places. 98% of my friends are tall/large/not flexible so getting in and out of the back seat is quite problematic. the stick shift is really hard on my legs/hands. i can't cheat and drive with my left foot only if i'm hurty, 'cause i need both feet to work the three pedals. ditto for hands: can't shift AND turn with less than two hands. Having a stick-shift car also precludes some friends from being able to drive it, even in an emergency. (my first car was a 5-speed, and having that knowledge was useful)

but finances dictate i keep this car as long as humanly possible. ideally, my next car will be taller (easier on the knees), somewhat larger (but not too much! i've only ever had small cars!), more passenger-friendly and automatic tranmission. I want fuel-efficiency, too; i'm hoping by the time i can afford this dream car, a hybrid / super-efficient car is available.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I admit that one of the reasons I'm not itching to go for a manual transmission is the possibility of being less than fully able-bodied. Some people haven't had that rude awakening (yet?), but I have no such excuse for being unprepared.

What do you think of the Prius? That is what came to my mind when reading what you'd like. A Prius is bigger than you might be looking for, but its fuel efficiency could be just what you want. Perhaps by the time you're ready for another car, they'll be even better.

[just-cyd.livejournal.com]

the Prius might just work. my current MPG is in the 28-35 range, which i think is pretty good; 60 MPG is fantastic! price is reasonable, too.

[we'll just forget about the conniption dad will have when i buy a non-GM car; i'm a Big Girl and can make my own decisions! what good is his GM discount when they don't make what i want?]

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I suspect your dad will have a conniption whatever you do. Still, a discount is nothing to sneeze at. Apparently as of January 04 GM had no plans for a hybrid small car, but who knows -- they may have changed their minds by the time you are looking to buy.

Assuming you're going to look for something new, that is. I'm not ruling out older cars myself. (Heck, I'm not certain I'm going to buy at all right now. I'm just thinking.)

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

I adore my Prius, and have defended its gas mileage against some of the pessimists who put out really poor numbers on its mileage, but real world gas mileage for most people is probably closer to the high 40s--depending on where you live (it prefers hot weather, as do most cars) but does worse if you have lots of small separated trips (again, as do most cars.)

Still, there's much to love, the car is quieter even when the internal combustion is on, and for long trips the difference in how wearing the car is is, for me, substantial. (I drove about 14 hours yesterday in a rented truck, this isn't a theoretical concern for me.)

[chiefted]

I adore my Prius, and have defended its gas mileage against some of the pessimists who put out really poor numbers on its mileage

Sounds like we have been doing the same thing (didn't make a post but daltong and I finally got our Prius (2004, black and have given it the name FP7, hey was running out of starship capt's to name my cars after).

Anywho have been getting about 50 to 51 on the commute from DC to Petaluma every day. I have been getting better gas mileage with Shell vice Chevron or 76. It is very quiet (I still have the newbie panic of did the car stall when I am at a stop light), rides very well.

Note for CJ: The couple of Saturns that dalton and I have owned have had to be flat bed towed (the 1998 SW2 had to be flat bedded when I had a problem with it, and the with the LS2 2000 in the owners manual I believe they want that version on a flat bed). As far as chains go we had the "Spider Spike" version of chains that you can get from Saturn.

Still if it is a choice between those two and I know you haven't started looking yet, my vote would be the Prius all the way.

[just-cyd.livejournal.com]

the Prius sounds lovely. nearly all my driving is highway these days, and i just love what that's done for my fuel economy.

i'll definitely move that to the top of my list when i'm ready to shop. (dad's conniptions be damned. he's not the one who has to get in and out of it or pay to fuel it!)

[harpwolf.livejournal.com]

Mileage varies radically by how you drive.
My 1995 Ford Aspire gets 31 MPG @ 80 MPH cruise or 50 MPG @ 55.
My 1983 Firebird Trans Am got 16 'round town, 20 MPG @ 70 cruise, 27 MPG @ 55.
You will never believe I got 20 MPG @ 55 cruise from my... wait for it ... GMC Suburban!
If it can vary that much by regular cars, why not the Prius?

On quiet, yeah I hear you. Or I would hear you if years of loud cars hadn't dulled my hearing...

[lesliepear.livejournal.com]

I think most cars these days have timers on the defroster - I get bad about leaving mine on.

I also hear you on the automatic seatbelts. I think they are gone now. But my Escort has them in the front.

I also saw a van the other day where the mirrors folded when parked - maybe that's a new feature.

My wish includes folding rear seat (which will be easier once Alan is in a more removable booster seat) and 4 doors. When I bought my Escort I had no idea I'd be married with child.

I also can't imagine buying a big car. My personal limit is the size of a camry/accord. I can't imagine driving a minivan/suv.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I may have to do (*gasp*) a little after-market modification on the defroster. ;-)

I've seen the folding mirrors in Europe, but not here (yet).

When I bought my Escort I had no idea I'd be married with child.

And Alan's more than two years old now! Isn't it amazing how our lives change while a simple thing like a car can stay on? I would have laughed if anyone had told me in 1989 that I'd still have THIS VERY SAME CAR in 2005.

[eichin.livejournal.com]

I can see some of those things being hard to shop for - they're simply *bugs* but you have to poke at the car a bit to tell if it has them. (We're about at the tech level where build a cad-model of yourself, seating it in a cad model of the car you want, and figuring out ponytail and line-of-sight and airbags could *easily* be done on a desktop, but getting the data and expressing the personal constraints are still challenging.)

ZipCar had a Toyota Scion xA (the one that looks sort of like a Mini, not the xB which looks sort of like a schoolbus) that I poked at a bit, it is on my short list for "sensible commuter" car. Surprising headroom and legroom for that class. If you want to carry people and stuff *at the same time* it might not serve, but it did have some space when full of people. (Other vehicles on the shortlist: a prius, but only if I can get the priusplus wallcharging mods; it's kind of "eh" without them; a lotus 7, in the "screw all'y'all, I want to drive something fun" category, though I did see someone building an electric 7 which scores nicely in the ecohotrod niche; *maybe* a jeep. But my constraints are very different :-)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

they're simply *bugs* but you have to poke at the car a bit to tell if it has them.

Exactly. I'm disappointed at the seeming complete lack of short people in the car industry -- you'd think they'd have at least one tester who is as short as the supposed average height for a woman in the US -- but I'm not at all surprised.

I like the cad model idea. There will come a time when the data collection is semi-automated (stand in between this screen and this light please, [click] ok thanks).

Our physical constraints are indeed pretty different, and I suspect so is the amount of money we're willing to throw at the problem. :-) I also don't drive enough to convince me to get a Prius just yet, even if it'd fit in the garage, which it won't.

[oddhack.livejournal.com]

I'm disappointed at the seeming complete lack of short people in the car industry

Mass production and low-end vehicles probably results in designing for the spot in the middle and accepting that people at the ends will be poorly served.

It's not just height, but torso/leg ratio that can affect comfort - someone of identical height may have a very different experience if they're not laid out the same way. And when buying my first new car, I noticed that although the putative interior measurements on many compacts were almost identical, there were dramatic differences in how well I actually fit in the different models. I wouldn't be surprised if that were true for the other end of the height spectrum as well.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I take it you're particularly tall? :-) I've seen tall folks "try on" cars just like we "short" folks have to do.

Mass production and low-end vehicles probably results in designing for the spot in the middle and accepting that people at the ends will be poorly served.

Yeah -- my point was that I AM in the middle (of over 50% of the US population). But the way mass production seems to define "middle" is the average *male*.

Ah well. Can't be changed, so I gotta accept it. Still makes me shake my head though.

It's not just height, but torso/leg ratio that can affect comfort -

Oh, absolutely. I'd need to sit in 'em. Same for aircraft; I can fly many Pipers, can fly only some Cessnas, and Mooneys are right out.

[just-cyd.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I'm disappointed at the seeming complete lack of short people in the car industry -- you'd think they'd have at least one tester who is as short as the supposed average height for a woman in the US -- but I'm not at all surprised.

they don't cater to the tall people much, either. i had a good laugh watching my 6'4" heavyset (but not hugely overweight) brother try to get in and out of a brand-spankin-new Corvette. he threatened to remove the roof and just climb in Dukes of Hazard style. ;-) sadly, he only had the car for the night. i'd have loved to have opened her up on the highway...

[jupiter29.livejournal.com]

I also don't drive enough to convince me to get a Prius just yet

I'm now insanely curious what is so scandalous about not driving that I can't see it. Is it about getaway cars at bank robberies or something? :)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

*chuckle* Nah, it just had a bunch of financial detail in it and was thus on a tighter filter. I analyzed whether a Prius was a bad financial move for someone who drives only 8Kmiles a year (average!! including the year I drove across the continental US!) and the answer, unsurprisingly, was I'd be an idiot to buy a Prius.

Sadly, driving less doesn't give me Smugness Points that I can show off to my friends. Ah well. :-)

[jupiter29.livejournal.com]

Wow, makes me wonder what else is out there that I can't see. Anything completely scandalous?? I promise not to beg, but I do like to think of people on my friends list having scandalous sides. It makes me happy for some very strange reason to think people have wild sides. :)

So, okay, yeah, moving on from the "way too much information about Brian" department...

That makes sense. I've never done any analysis to determine what percent of the overall (10 year, say) cost of a new car is attributable to gas, but I'm guessing it's reasonably low (maybe 30-40%?) even at normal mileage averages and high gas prices. So if you were to double your gas mileage you could spend... what... another 15-20% on your car and come out even? That seems too easy, I suspect I'm oversimplifying things, but my brain is fried. But, anyway, you definitely have to look at both together. :)

Oh, for one thing, I was assuming you pay cash for your car. Finance charges and interest would definitely lower the percentage that's attributable to gas. :(

[harpwolf.livejournal.com]

Driving less certainly does give you Smugness Points, if you think about the environment, or about transit use, or sustainable living. My teacher routinely gets hassled for driving an enormous SUV -- he responds that he drives it less than 5 miles a day and fuels it once a month, "And how often do you drive your ___??"

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can get smug about it, but smugness points just aren't half the fun when no one else "gets it". :-)

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

I'm curious, do you mind a question? I'm confused by the excitement (and you aren't the only person I've talked to who has it) of the wall-charging mods, but perhaps I don't know the particular complete set of mods you refer to. I own a Prius, so I have some familiarity with the stock operation. With the existing (2004) Prius battery pack you're looking at at best a couple miles of range on battery-only. Apparently the "give me electric only" modification is not particularly difficult, although unless you do lots of very separated, very short, low-speed, low-acceleration trips I can't see it as a killer application, staying in electric only below 40 on flat surfaces isn't a difficult trick to learn in a stock Prius once it has warmed up a minute or two.) I'm not even certain that wall-charging is cheaper at current market electric prices, if you have your own solar that might be different.

(Of course, I'm assuming you're not changing the battery pack, this assumption might be in error, but there are other ramifications of a battery pack large enough for significant electric-only range. The weight difference of the mods I've heard suggested offhand have been extraordinarily punative.) Anyway, any enlightenment you might provide about why it would be desirable would clear up some confusion on my part, and would therefore be appreciated.

[eichin.livejournal.com]

http://calcars.org/priusplus.html is the particular mod set I had in mind. True, the basic electric-only-mode is just a matter of turning on a feature that is *already* on in non-US prius models; the far more interesting bit is adding a bunch of LiIon cells in some dead space (and that avoids the weight issues too.)

Just as the normal prius *isn't* primarily about fuel economy (otherwise a TDI jetta would be competetive choice, at least in earlier model years), it's about low-emissions, a wall-charged prius isn't really about being cheaper (the price of the mod isn't even going to pay off for a long time - although the Rav4-ev rated "100mpg" price-equivalent, ie. you paid as much for the electricity as you would for gas if it got 100mpg), it's about not burning oil outright, or at least that's my take on it.

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

...it's about not burning oil outright, or at least that's my take on it.

That depends on where your wall electricity comes from. But yeah, it's a
lot more than just a price thing for me, emissions is important, and I do
drive an awful lot (26K miles the first year), and I do think that oil
prices will go up over the next handful of years--but quiet is important,
and driving the technology curve is as well for me. Many of these things
apply as well (to to full-electrics.)

The PriusPlus conversion looks good so far, and when/if it's offered, I may very well
look into taking a conversion myself, depending on where it ends up on
cost, weight, and any impact on cargo space. Thanks for the link!

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

Prius's certainly fail many of these tests, including the financial ones. Cassettes aren't supported, you'd have to put up with electric locks and windows (I think), and the climate system is way "smarter" than you'd prefer, to name a few.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know.

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

I figured it was likely you didn't, but ... just sayin'.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Rob and I crawled all over yours shortly after you got it. You even let us test drive it (thanks!). We also saw that its trunk space was smaller than my Corolla's and that it was really kind of a *big* car, both things that don't work well for me. Rob considered it for a while though.

[joedecker.livejournal.com]

*nods*

[jupiter29.livejournal.com]

I'm not a car person so I don't have much to add here. All I know about cars is that mine cost me way too much last night and I need to figure out if I can get reimbursed from Chrysler. :)

But, for the record, I wanted to say your cut-tag made me giggle. :)

- No headlights that are technically legal but make me an asshole on the road. Sorry. Nobody wants to see cars like that coming at them, and I don't want to be the kind of consumer who will buy one.

Amen!

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

The prevalence of these headlights makes me realize how few people really give a hoot about the things I give a hoot about. It's depressing, sometimes.

[jupiter29.livejournal.com]

Headlights in general bother me, I have to admit. Even if they're not particularly annoying on the road, I am constantly finding myself blocking lights from my eyes because some SUV pulled up behind me and doesn't realize that his headlights are shining directly in my back window. :( Last week I was waiting for a prescription in a drive-through pharmacy and the woman behind me had her lights come on automatically because of the overhanging roof, even thought it was noon. By the time I finally got done, I had my right hand up blocking the rearview mirror and my left hand up blocking the side mirror, and was mentally counting just how much bail money it would cost me to go back and knock on her window and tell her to turn the d**n things off. :)

[harpwolf.livejournal.com]

I don't know about interlocks, but A/C dries the air, so A/C + Recirc is Defrost's best friend.
There's a law against disabling airbags? Sounds unconstitutional to me. (ooh, watch that insurance). Notify your riders that airbags are disabled if they are. Mine are, shall we say, "not yet repaired". Why not have a race mechanic weld in a proper roll-frame and real seatbelts?
Cassettes and CDs is not a blocker for any car, swap radios.
Cupholders, yes, I upgraded cars because of that.
Nearly all cars are 4-seaters. I know that because 2-seaters are carpool-2 on the Bay Bridge. The question is, how much crap is piled on the back seats? :)
"Push the pedal it should go" - Look at how aircraft are maintained. Now look at how fuel intermix systems are maintained on cars. Who is surprised that one is reliable and the other is not? We've had the "you need fuel injection" conversation :) but really, carbs COULD be maintained that well - just NOBODY knows how anymore and the parts aren't to be had, because nobody buys the parts.
Automatics -- cool. As you shop, pay close attention to how they shift, as the quality varies quite a bit from maker to maker. Surprises exist: GM makes some of the best automatics on earth and a lot of Japanese ones suck.

The "climate control" and "anti-stupidity" features you want are readily available in cheaper, 5+ year old cars like the Aspire. However, late 1990s and up, they are fading away. Even the low-end cars have Body Control Modules that try to "help you out". (Of course BCM's are a modder's delight...) I recommend shopping early-mid 1990s, pre-1996 if you want to avoid the genuinely helpful, but annoying OBD-II "Maintain me NOW" nags. Me, I regard OBD II as the closest thing we have to an aircraft mechanic...