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Tuesday, February 10th, 2009 06:53 pm
My outlook on the whole career change thing changes as I get new information, do new things, and encounter new obstacles. If a lot of positive things have happened recently I am cheerful. Right now it's the opposite.

First was the paper from some symposium or other on the financial aspects of a career in veterinary medicine. People are walking out of vet school with an average debt of $122K, and by 2010 that's expected to be a shade over $200K. Back in 1980, a newly minted DVM had a debt load of 91.6% of his starting yearly salary; in 2007, it's 184%, and it's only getting worse. In short, tuition's going up a lot faster than salary. Veterinary degrees are fast becoming something only the rich can afford.

Then there was the meeting with the San Jose State University transfer representative this morning. I cannot transfer from De Anza to San Jose State. I have a bachelor's degree. They are not taking any applications for undergraduate ("post-bachelor" or second degree) work from people who already have a bachelor's. I am allowed to try to take those courses through a program called Open University, but in that program I cannot preregister for classes; I must add them after the semester begins. It will be very difficult to get into any classes that way.

And finally, I got mail from the Honors Program coordinator saying that since I didn't take an "honors course" THIS quarter, that is to say, I didn't sign up for one before I was even in the program, I don't get early registration for spring quarter. That's pretty shitty, and I sent some (hopefully politely-worded) mail saying so, but there may be nothing that can be done to salvage that situation at this point. [edit: Or maybe there can. I think the coordinator got me mixed in with another category/group who were already in, or something. This one might get fixed.]

*sigh*. At least I'm getting good grades. Spanish test = 100%. Anybody need a Spanish/English translator? I could try to become one of those. I'm sure there's no one in this area who can already meet that need.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 03:17 am (UTC)
How can it be possible for the field to continue with numbers like that? It's completely illogical.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 03:32 am (UTC)
Yeah, that's why they're having things like "symposia" on how to improve the situation. If things continue as they are, being a veterinarian will simply mean marrying someone with an income sufficient to support the family. (Two of the vets at my clinic are married to high-tech engineer types.)

I do think there are hidden factors in those numbers. The field has become overwhelmingly female, and many young veterinarians work part time in order to start a family. I don't know whether the salary numbers have been adjusted to compensate for reduced hours. (I suspect they have -- that's too glaring an error to make -- but you never know.) Also, more and more first-year veterinarians are entering internships, which pay squat, extending the time the interest is compounded if not increasing the debt itself.

Still. It's the most financially stupid thing I've ever done.

Also sobering to realize I count as "the rich" for this one. Close, anyway. In the paper, the authors were making the point that this career path may soon work well only for students whose parents will put them through school. In my case, my first career is my "parents". I'll just be twenty years older than the average kid who has Mommy and Daddy's money to spend.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 03:46 am (UTC)
I genuinely do not understand how anyone can afford to start a career/life with that kind of debt. The numbers make no sense at all. We can't have entire generations of people starting their careers with debts that will take them a lifetime to pay.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 04:12 am (UTC)
Yep, it no worky, and apparently the no worky is coming to a head right about now. It hasn't always been this bad; apparently it's getting markedly worse.

My guess is that this is not really any kind of crisis, except from the point of view of the individuals who didn't sketch out a quick post-graduation budget before signing the student loan papers. Lots of people would do almost anything to work with animals. So, ta-daa, there they are: working with animals for (net) not much money. There will always be people who want to be vets.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 04:27 am (UTC)
M.D.s have been doing it for years...but they have lots of ways to pay it back more easily than a Vet would.

I also know lots of people who ended up with huge student loan balances just from getting their Bachelors...as long as you are going to school you can defer repayment indefinitely.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 04:41 am (UTC)
Looking at it by dollars, MDs have been doing it for years, but by debt-to-salary percentages, MDs are way better off. I'm starting to wonder how much I really need to be an animal doctor.

I hear you about the bachelors', too. My sister wound up in that fix. She went on to law school because hey, something's got to pay for that undergrad degree.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 04:52 am (UTC)
Too true. I'm not sure what the starting salary of an MD is, so I can't comment...but I'm assuming it can't be too bad...unless of course they want to, I don't know...work with the people who have no medical care? I think that's when they do that whole "Northern Exposure" thing.

I've been wondering if you were going to run into this problem. (i.e. the costs going up faster than you could get through the program and still have a decent life afterwards.) Especially since it seems that all these walls to getting your BA education are being tossed up all over the place.

It sucks...I'm sorry.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 04:56 am (UTC)
Ooo, yeah, I didn't think of that -- the people who do Doctors Without Borders or work in clinics in very poor areas. Yeah, those people are probably living on Ramen noodles too.

Maybe "doing what you love" isn't the only consideration. After all is said and done, we work in order to put food on the table, and if we can't put food on the table, then no matter how much we love our supposed chosen profession, we'd better go out and get one a them job thangs.

Backup Plan B: Go to work for the companies that make veterinary clinic appointment/inventory/etc software. :-)
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 04:59 am (UTC)
That's the positive way of looking at it!

What about becoming a Vet Tech? I know it probably doesn't pay worth anything...but at least you can still work part time at something you love and get paid something for it.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 05:01 am (UTC)
If my feet ever get a lot better, that would be an excellent choice.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 05:04 am (UTC)
Yea, that would be kinda necessary wouldn't it.

How are the feet?You've been posting a lot about the diet...but I'm not remembering much about the feet.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 05:06 am (UTC)
No change = not much to say. :-)
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 05:11 am (UTC)
That's kinda what I figured...Ut.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 05:06 am (UTC)
My mom and I were just talking about this. I want to do maternal/child health via the public health vector and I'm planning to stay in LA or move to the BA, because they are the areas that I could make even halfway decent money in. My hometown, a rural area with a *tremendous* need for community based nurses where I would LOVE to live, just isn't one where I can earn the kind of salary I need to earn to pay back loans and save for retirement. :-(

This makes me so sad though because I think you are following your passion and I want you to get what you want.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 05:13 am (UTC)
I wonder if you could do that path -- live where you want to -- later on. A 20-year-old veterinarian graduating when I will graduate will someday be debt-free; it's just going to take a while. Then he or she could move to a community with lower cost of living and lower salaries. Maybe that would work for you too, if only you have enough time to sit in LA and pay off debt first.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 04:30 am (UTC)
I think this is how one of our friends wife pulled it off. Mid-Career change and married to a high-tech person...and now she's on a surgical residency, they moved to the mid-west for her internship, now they are in Canada. She's been at this career change since I met her 6 months before Joe and I got married.

Medical school of any type is just plain expensive.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 04:51 am (UTC)
She's a people doctor? A surgeon-to-be? She'll make four times a vet's salary, maybe five. O'course, as you point out, getting there is quite the battle. For MDs, the enormous length of time spent in internship and residency is not only physically but financially grueling. (This is one major reason I don't aspire to be an MD. I'd like to be working "for real" again before I start getting senior discounts on my dinners.) For vets, there's a lot less of that, and of course a lot less in the way of eventual salary too.

Law school ain't cheap either. It even has, in its own way, an internship period -- low man on the totem pole in a law firm. They walk out making twice what I'll walk out making, but still, I suspect there are more than a few first-year lawyers out there eating Ramen noodles.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 04:58 am (UTC)
Nope, she's a vet! Started as a lawyer, looked around after a few years and said "This sucks!" and started down the path you are on. That was...12 years ago? Went to Davis, did a 2 year internship in the midwest and is on a 2 year surgical residency in Canada.

There's a LOT of lawyers who are just broke those first few years...its one of the reasons why I decided I really didn't want to be a lawyer. I was already 20 grand in the hole for my BA, a JD would add another 50...or more. I decided to become a librarian instead. Much cheaper program.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 05:04 am (UTC)
Oh wow. So she has TWO professional degrees! Now *there* is someone with a big student loan debt (I would guess). Wow.

I know a lot of lawyers who looked around after a few years, said "This sucks!", and went on to work as something other than lawyers. My sister is one. A couple of LJ-friends are, too.

Am also beginning to see just how good a deal the ROTC program was. I'd have been way in the hole for my BS if the Army hadn't picked up the tab.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 05:10 am (UTC)
I had a large number of lawyers in my Library classes...=)

The rate of people staying in that profession isn't as large as you'd think.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 05:14 am (UTC)
In what profession, law? Yeah, somehow I'm not hugely surprised, after seeing the path my sister took (and her reasons).
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 10:20 pm (UTC)
The issue with the law degree is that a very small fraction of JD graduates actually get to be the low man on the totem pole at a law firm. A large portion of my class (about 80% or more) ended up with 150K of debt and are in gov/public interest jobs slots starting at around 40K if they were lucky. Some number didn't even get that and are working as contract temps at about $20/hr. Take a look at http://www.elsblog.org/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/30/nalp_bimodal.jpg (taken from http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/2007/09/distribution-of.html) Basically you have to be in the top 10% of your class at a top 20-30ish law school to end up in the right hand bump of the salary graph.
Wednesday, February 11th, 2009 11:52 pm (UTC)
Yikes. That's anazingly awful. I had no idea it was that bad for new JDs.