More data on the bean question

[cjsmith]

I have thought of some exceptions to the beans-and-legumes problem:
- I can eat peanuts okay as long as I don't eat many.
- I can eat green beans fine (although I admit those aren't heavy on the BEAN component; they're mostly the pod).

Thanks go to abqdan for finding this Mayo Clinic link with information on the various indigestible or hard-to-digest sugars. That clearly suggests some experiments. I already suspect I have trouble with lactose in sufficient quantities; a few days of carefully-chosen meal plans will tell me whether I'm also sensitive to fructose or to sorbitol. My bean soup was full of onions and was eaten with homemade wheat bread, making that experiment by itself a total mess. Testing one potential cause at a time is simplest.

The fact that Beano is alpha-galactosidase is intriguing. I never knew raffinose was digested via a pathway so similar to that of lactose. Lactase meds are beta-galactosidase, right? Maybe I need BOTH. Maybe Beano alone won't help someone who's lactase-deficient. (I wish I knew more of this stuff.) Nevermind, I'm barking up the wrong tree with this one. I may need both, but I don't need both for beans. Both galactosidases cleave the appropriate polysaccharide into monosaccharides; alpha- works on raffinose (beans), beta- on lactose. Once that's done, three more enzymes are required for digestion of galactose (a monosaccharide present in both raffinose and lactose), but if I had problems with those enzymes, I'd be very sick or even dead right now.

I would also be interested in suggestions from folks who laud a bean-and-grain diet as somehow more "natural" or "real" (which would rule out Beano, lactase, and probably imported herb/spice additives as well). If indeed humans should be able to subsist on this stuff, then either I am physiologically wonky (alien? :) ) or I don't know how to boil beans. If I simply don't know how to boil beans, I would like to learn. It would be a lot simpler to be able to make bean soup and not have to run out to the store for medicine in order to eat it.

Comments

[hanov3r.livejournal.com]

I would argue that 'subsist' != 'eat toot-free'. You're capable of eating beans, right? You are, as far as you know, capable of processing most of the nutritional elements that exist in said beans? That tells me you're probably capable of subsisting on them, albeit with a certain amount of discomfort.

I think I worked a little too long for the law firm.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I would argue that the level of pain I have if I eat mostly beans would be counter to survival in a developing hunter/gatherer group. :)

[hanov3r.livejournal.com]

Not to mention how easy it would be for a hunting animal to track you... :-)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

HAHAHAHA! For the win!

[recordersmith.livejournal.com]

Is digesting beans painful for you too? or just smelly?

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Painful in larger quantities, due to the gas.

[psi-star-psi.livejournal.com]

I came to the discussion a bit late. I suppose you can't just claim that you're practicing for the local stage production of Blazing Saddles? (Or American Pie, Dumb and Dumber, etc.)

No, probably not. Oh, well. Especially if there's discomfort/pain involved.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

This comment made me think. With the widespread use of bathroom humor in a certain genre, it's a little scary that I can't think of any FEMALE roles using it. Are we really still that @#$!ed up about gender? ...no need to answer that. :)

[psi-star-psi.livejournal.com]

Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle, making up for this clear deficit in the film industry. You should check it out, in your copious free time.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Humorous? Bathroomy? Sounds good.

[moriamerri.livejournal.com]

I would also be interested in suggestions from folks who laud a bean-and-grain diet as somehow more "natural" or "real" .... If indeed humans should be able to subsist on this stuff, then either I am physiologically wonky (alien? :) ) or I don't know how to boil beans.

First, "more natural or real" than what? I would claim that a diet with lotsa beans/grains is more "real" than eating primarily TV dinners and soda pop. Also more "real" than chocolate (one of my favorite foods!) However, an entire diet of beans and whole grains would be fairly deficient so I would not suggest subsisting on (just) that.

It does sound like you may be more-than-average prone to getting gas from beans, but I wouldn't conclude that our species is unsuited to eat beans based on this, if so. (Sorry.) I don't think "not knowing how to boil beans" is all there is to it, either. I eat beans at resturaunts and from cans quite often, and I am guessing you do too.... Other people cooked those. Do you have similar reactions to them?

Hopefully beano or more cooking or eating just selected kinds of beans will be helpful....

I didn't look at the link -- but I don't think of "lack" of lactase as being a lack -- I think of drinking milk as wonky (beyond toddlerhood anyway) -- so, um, if lactase is necessry to digest beans um, I'll have to think about that..... (Alternately, could I digest beans better because I don't drink milk? Just asking....)

I'm still thinking about green beans too -- in addition to being partly pod they are fresh rather than dried and then rehydrated (like most beans). Then again, even if we knew that you could eat ANY kind of fresh beans, that would be pretty useless -- most are not sold fresh :( -- only dried.....

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't think I know of anyone who would advocate dropping everything that ISN'T a bean or a grain. I just know a lot of people who preach that lots of beans and grains is "the right way" to eat. And I figure, hey, preachers should know their subject, right? :) Maybe they can help.

I try to avoid beans from restaurants, although I'll sometimes go ahead, and yeah, I react. :) But it could be that there's a very very careful and effective way to cook them (that I would need) and a not so careful way (that restaurants would use and most people would be okay with).

I agree with you that lack of lactase is the more normal state, for most of humanity, at least in adulthood. It may be that some other beta-galactosidase (lactase is a subset of beta-galactosidases) is what's usually used to digest beans. Or I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely.

[moriamerri.livejournal.com]

re: preachers: yeah, I do generally think this is part of the right way to eat -- beans in particular I think are very "good" food (I can't really imagine NOT eating beans!) -- but I have not given much thought to the gas issue relative to this, because whatever level of gas it causes me is not enough for me to notice it as a problem. So in my case my belief in the goodness of beans is little help. Maybe I've gotten used to some level of gas? -- I probably eat some form of beans almost every day.... Or maybe my digestion "adjusted". Whatever. I can see where it would seem less natural and good in your case, discomfort and pain being what it is ;)

Re: special cooking -- yep, if you can figure out what works for you that's it -- then you have the option to do the special stuff and eat only those beans made your way.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

(By the way, I was indeed barking up the wrong tree, above.)

because whatever level of gas it causes me is not enough for me to notice it as a problem.

I hope I am not oversharing here (ha! in THIS thread?) but I'll just say that you are waaaaaaaaaay different from me. :) :)

Musing:

1. If Beano / alpha-galactosidase is the only key, I'm guessing there's no adjustment going on. The sites I've visited so far are crystal clear on the fact that this enzyme is not found in humans.

2. If Wikipedia can be trusted on the rest of the digestion chain, I'm probably okay on those enzymes.

So I wonder what it is, then, that makes you and some other commenters basically OK and comfortable, when I am basically a cluster bomb. :)

3. Varying activity levels in large-intestine fauna? That's the only thing I can think of that's left. If you have E.coli that don't eat much uncleaved raffinose, your body will just discard it, while my E.coli are going NUTS in there and I'm saying OW and trying to find a place to hide.

Sorry for length there. I'm thinking "out loud".

So maybe I have to boil the beans until there's nothing left of the problem sugars. (Maybe it will then be useless to eat those poor spent beans, maybe not.) It is also quite possible that "the right way" to eat is NOT the right way for ME. (No surprise; I'm allergic to most One-True-Wayism anyhow.) Or maybe there's something I can take to knock my E.coli for a loop. :)

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

Don't think of it as knocking yer e coli for a loop, rather think of it as increasing biodiversity.

Seriously, you could eat yogurt, which has lactobacilli in it. I'd start there. That's a proven way to recolonize the body with bacteria that are beneficial for digestion.

If that doesn't work, you could look into probiotics, but those are a bit costly.

Yogurt (with active cultures, that is a keyword!) every day. Just a little bit. That may swing your digestion over. And it's generally a good way to does yourself with healthy bacteria.

Good luck!

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I'm confused. This will help me NOT have active E.coli digesting raffinose?

[edit: or whatever else digests raffinose? Is it because they'd be competing, now, with lactobacilli, for space if not for food, and thus the raffinose-eaters will decrease in number overall?]

[moriamerri.livejournal.com]

Hey! inflectionpoint has said some of what I'm thinking (having read the comment CJ's comment which was sent to me by email).

Regarding #3, do consider the gut flora issue--at least it seems like a possibility to explore. Yogurt has some strains of probiotics....or you can also get other stuff that has more (as inflectionpoint said). (The general word for this stuff is probiotics. Ask at whole foods and they can show you various kinds. There are probiotic capsules and liquids that are concentrated (more concentrated than yogurt)). Anyway, um, lactobacilus acidopholous (sp?) and bifidus (sp?) are common, but there are other kinds, and I think it is good to take a variety of strains..... just sorta on general principle. (Small and large intestines have different kinds / distribution.) However, I don't know how these various organisms relate to the digestion (or lack of digestion) of beans. But, hey, as long as you are exploring, may as well wander down this road as well.

There's also a special yogurt thingy that they sell now (e.g. at HFS) that has a wider range of probiotics -- the package talks about boosting your immune system -- I think it is called Dani (something like that). Tiny little containers. I bought a bunch of it after taking antibiotics recently :(

While thinking about all this I looked in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence#Causes Some interesting reading, some of it similar to various musing here -- including a brief mention of probiotics.

(quoting wikipedia:)
The amount of water-soluble oligosaccharide in beans that may contribute to production of intestinal gas is reputed to be reduced by a long period of soaking followed by boiling,[citation needed] but at a cost of also leaching out other water-soluble nutrients.[citation needed] Also, intestinal gas can be reduced by fermenting the beans, and making them less gas-inducing, and/or by cooking them in the liquor from a previous batch[citation needed]. Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum have recently been hypothesized as being responsible for this effect.[7] Some legumes also stand up to prolonged cooking, which can help break down the oligosaccharides into simple sugars. Fermentation also breaks down oligosaccharides, which is why fermented bean products such as miso and tofu are less likely to produce as much intestinal gas[citation needed]).

Probiotics (yogurt, kefir, etc.) are reputed to reduce flatulence when used to restore balance to the normal intestinal flora.[8] Yogurt contains Lactobacillus acidophilus which may be useful in reducing flatulence[citation needed]). L. acidophilus may make the intestines more acidic, thus maintaining the natural balance of fermentation processes.[citation needed] L. acidophilus is available in supplements (non-dairy is reputedly best[citation needed]). Prebiotics, which generally are non-digestible oligosaccharides, such as fructooligosaccharide, generally increase flatulence in a similar way as described for lactose intolerance.[citation needed]

Medicinal activated charcoal tablets have also been reported as effective in reducing both odor and quantity of flatus when taken immediately before food that is likely to cause flatulence later.[citation needed]

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that we're finally on the right path here. The whole enzyme thing wasn't making much sense, and various pieces of it wouldn't hang together well, but this has potential.

Of course, I don't yet see how adding bacteria helps the problem, because as best I can see SUBTRACTING very specific bacteria is what I need to do, but it's no hardship to eat some yogurt!