Writing goals

[cjsmith]

Quote from Rob: "If this is a bit scary, it's probably the right thing for you to do."

Could my goal be "Get a novel ready for submission somewhere, and submit it, within one year?" Last night Rob and I handwaved some length constraints, pace estimates, and rewrite-time guesses. We're hindered by not knowing much about what it takes to get something submittable, but on the other hand, we do have some constraints we know about. We decided that:

1. Standalone novels are not 50 kwords. The shortest fiction book I can find on my shelf is maybe ~75 kwords, and it's a really freakin' simplistic book.
2. The pace must be maintainable (alongside a day job, square dance calling, and swimming) and must produce writing I can hand to critiquers. If I hand out stuff I should be ashamed to have my cat read with her butt, I won't have readers the second time around.
3. Double the estimate, at the very least, to add a first pass rewrite (section by section or reworking major structure) based on critiques.
4. It's reasonable to assume that if I join a writing group and get feedback, I'll spend a bunch of time reading and commenting on others' work as well. This stuff doesn't come for free.

It looks like a year just to finish the second draft, and it will likely still be shitty at that point. So in short, no. At my skill level, I can't create a submittable novel in a year.

Could my goal be "Get a short story ready for submission somewhere, and submit it?" Welllll... far fewer short story anthologies get published than novels. Yet I do enjoy working on shorter stuff. Not sure how or whom to ask about this one.

What if I hope to get good at humor? Welllll... there aren't many openings for newspaper columnists. Besides, I'd rather tell a story. Books with humor/silliness and little else are, to me, like eating a room full of candy for dinner, so I'll have to get good at the "else" (the story) either way.

So I'm still confused. I don't yet have something I'm willing to commit to.

Comments

[theoctothorpe.livejournal.com]

Why bother with physical publishing when you can release it online?

[davidlevine]

Depends on your goal. If you want your friends and a few other people to read it, put it online. If you want thousands of people to read it, receive reviews from respected reviewers, and get money for your effort, traditional publishing is still the way to go.

[theoctothorpe.livejournal.com]

I don't buy that.

Thousands of (unique) people read my (professional) weblog, less than 1% of them are people I know. Of course, I know we're not talking about a weblog here. I'd even venture to say the barrier to entry is *lower* if you put a book on the web, as people can access it anytime, rather than need to go to a bookstore, etc.

Many (professional) reviewers are reviewing works online, so that's kinda shot down. That said, what's more interesting, hundreds of readers giving testimonials, or one or two reviewers writing a review in some obscure publication that many will read, but fewer will bother picking up the book. I realise this question is totally subjective, but it's a good one to answer. Of course, what's wrong with both? They're not mutually exclusive!

Getting money? That's not so difficult either. I'd even say it's more difficult trying to pimp your work to a dead-tree publisher, and you'd wind up getting a lower % of the gross anyway.

I think traditional publishing is here to stay, but I also think there are more options out there for publication than there ever were. Why not examine all possibilities? Yes, I agree, it does depend on the goal.

[davidlevine]

You can't compare weblog readership to readership for an online novel. Hardly anyone is willing to either read a whole novel online or print it out and read it.

Are you really likely to get "hundreds of readers giving testimonials" on an online first novel? If Steven King posts a novel online, that's one thing. For a new novelist, it's a completely different ball game. First you have to get the readers' attention (see below about distribution and publicity). The very, very few people who've achieved notable success with online publication (and "notable success" generally means getting a traditional publishing contract) either had a large existing readership (like Cory Doctorow) or worked their tails off publicizing it.

"What's wrong with both?" Well, they really are mutually exclusive. If you post your novel or short story online, most traditional publishers will consider it prior publication and won't consider it. If you sell it to a traditional publisher, they will generally purchase the online rights as well. There are exceptions, but that's the way to bet.

The big difference between any form of self-publishing (print or online) and traditional publishing is the distribution and publicity. If you want to make money by being a writer, write a book and get a professional publisher to distribute and publicize it. If you want to make money by being a publisher, write a book and then distribute (through whatever means) and publicize it yourself. But realize that this is a very large job, and will take time away from the writing. You do get to keep a bigger percentage of the gross, but the gross will be much smaller. Whether it pencils out (i.e. makes you more money) depends on your skills at selling and promoting the book, as well as intangibles like quality, interestingness, and topicality, but it definitely will be more work.

I'm afraid I have to go offline shortly, so if you respond and you don't hear back from me, it's not because I'm ignoring you. I'll probably be offline for some days, unless I can find free wi-fi where I'm going (not likely).

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

What if I hope to get good at humor? Welllll... there aren't many openings for newspaper columnists. Besides, I'd rather tell a story. Books with humor/silliness and little else are, to me, like eating a room full of candy for dinner, so I'll have to get good at the "else" (the story) either way.

Oh, I dunno. Have you read any Sarah Vowell or David Sedaris? Fantastic (imho :)), and fantastically funny with an underlying seriousness which anchors the essays, keeping them from being cotton candy. Lovely insights and observations.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

No Sarah Vowell, but I've read one David Sedaris. You may hate me for saying this, but I didn't see any humor in it. Truly. I was 2/3 of the way through the book when I realized OH, this is the person everyone on my friends list worships, and I bet this book is supposed to be funny.

I guess humor is a very individual thing. :/

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

Nah, I don't hate you :). Out of curiosity, which one of his did you read?

If you want to try Vowell, I'd recommend Assassination Vacation, in which she travels the country doing a sort of Progress through places made famous by assassinated Presidents. It's gentle humor, quirky in a not-to-perky sort of way, and she knows her history.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I think it was Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim. I, uh, don't remember a whole bunch about it now. :-)

On the positive side, of course, "humor is an individual thing" means that if one editor doesn't chuckle, the next one may be holding her sides and wiping streaming eyes.

Thanks for the book recommendation!

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

Hey, no problem! The thing with Sedaris is that underneath the humor there's a whole lotta pain, and that does color his work quite blatantly.

I simply love compilations of essays. I try not to grab people and say, Oh, you should just *love* this! :) And I never, ever expect people I know to have the same taste in reading; never put any emotional weight on whether they like the same stuff I do. That's just a recipe for disaster :).

In any case, good luck, and I'll be interested in seeing where you go with this. At the moment I have four freewrites I'm turning into short stories. It's... enlightening :).

[davidlevine]

I know plenty of people who write a novel in a year. Some of them even have day jobs. It took me about 18 months to complete the first draft of my first (and so far only) novel and an additional 6 months or so to revise it.

A short story, on the other hand, is about 1/20th the size of a novel and shouldn't take more than a month to write, revise, and submit. I'd say that setting a one-year goal to write and submit one short story is setting the bar too low. There are not a lot of anthologies that are open to unsolicited stories, but if you're writing SF/fantasy you can see http://www.ralan.com for a list of the available magazines (paper and electronic). There are quite a few of them. (I don't know as much about other genres.)

If you have any questions about writing -- craft, mechanics, or economics -- just ask.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the sanity-checking on the time guesstimates and thank you for the link! Would you say ralan.com is more up to date / accurate / complete than a Writer's Market? (I'm more familiar with the organization of WM.)

It's always been my impression that when a market says "SF/fantasy" they mean SF. Am I confused? Sadly (for my potential to get any respect whatsoever), I'm much more comfortable on the fantasy side of things.

I will probably pester you a lot if you let me. I'd ask about Clarion, about critique groups, about query letters... everything. :)

[davidlevine]

Sorry for the delay in responding; I've been offline in Austin.

ralan.com is more up to date, and probably more accurate, than any printed Writers' Market book just by virtue of being a website. If there's a specific Writers' Market website you'd like me to compare it to, let me know the URL. Ralan is definitely the most commonly recommended resource right now for F/SF markets.

If a market says "SF/Fantasy" that means they accept both. SF-only and Fantasy-only markets are generally listed as such. (But some market listings may lump all SF and fantasy markets into a single "SF/Fantasy" category -- you should always check the market's own guidelines for the straight dope.) However, the line between SF and fantasy is so blurry that you can get away with almost anything as long as it appeals to the editor. Even Analog publishes some fantasy; even Realms of Fantasy publishes some SF.

Feel free to ask me anything (dlevine at spiritone dot com) and I'll do my best to answer. Are there any upcoming events (square dancing or science fiction) where we're likely to be in the same place at the same time?

Useful LJs for fantasy writers to read include matociquala and limyaael.

[vito-excalibur.livejournal.com]

Quote from Rob: "If this is a bit scary, it's probably the right thing for you to do."

My version of this is "whatever you're most scared of trying, that's what you need to do."

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Ayep. Y'know, sometimes that's really annoying! Gah.

[tryslora]

First thing: http://sff.onlinewritingworkshop.com/

BEST online writing workshop (IMO). Yes, there are Campbell award winners who are part of it. Editors are part of it. It costs money, and is a LOT of work, but the work teaches you what you need to know and it is worth it. It is also a fabulous writing community within the SFF writing world. I highly recommend if you're serious about getting your work to a publishable place.

Second thing. Hard work. I mean, serious eek. I've been fighting with the lack of time thing ever since the first kid was born, and it goes downhill from there. I've got novels I haven't finished. I've got short stories out seeking homes. BUT... every bit of time that passes, and I'm still working on it, I'm getting better. More likely to hit a right note on the first shot and not come in totally flat. Writing is work, serious work.

Third thing. Start friending writers. I can point to lots on my flist who I like to talk to because they write things I like, and they're friendly, and we talk shop.

Oh! And I echo Ralan's site. One of my faves for market research. There are others, but I don't have the links handy.

I'm rambling now (likely because it's almost midnight *grins*). Drop me an email if you like, or IM me (this ID works when I'm online), if you want to talk writing. Hard work, but worth it, if it's what you want to do.

Oh, and average first novel is 100-110k.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Thank you VERY much for the recommendation. It seems like OWW SFF is targeted at a set of skill levels whose lower bound is probably me. That's excellent, if true; it's a place where I can grow and get to the next stage of the game!

I've friended a couple of writers... need to friend more of 'em. My friends list is pretty big now though! I have a separate "writing" persona on LJ, and maybe I should use that, though I find I don't wind up logging out/in very much. Ideas? What do you do to manage LJ-time?

100-110k seems very sane. It's cool to know where the "average first" comes in.

I've friended you on Y!IM :-)

[tryslora]

Yes, OWW SFF goes from rank beginner (which I'm betting is actually way below you... I've reviewed a lot of stuff) up through pros who still use it because their crit group is there.

Uh... *manage* my time? *innocence* I'm addicted to LJ, I'll admit it. I scan my flist several times a day. I'm also good at skimming, reading quickly, and then focussing in on the bits I want to spend more time on. A lot of my flist aren't verbose, too, which helps.

Write 100k. Chop it in half by getting rid of all the bits you don't need (every scene should have two purposes... if it doesn't, combine it). Then put in the missing 50k of subplots, foreshadowing, details, etc. Then you'll be done. *grins*

Yay! Ping me when I'm on in the evenings. I can't get to Y!IM during the day from work (big brother is very specific on what I can and can't do *sighs*).

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

How do you find a group at OWW SFF who's at roughly your own level?

I'm addicted to LJ too. Sad, sad! And I too will skim a lot. I have stuff to do, man!

I like your algorithm for creating a novel! :-)

[tryslora]

Okay, to settle into finding a critique group at OWW SFF.

First, start reading. In fact, don't even think about posting stories/chapters at first. Read other people's posts, and look for ones that appeal to you in the style of writing, and that feel similar, and a little above your own in some ways, below in others. I usually find people I can help by doing character/dialogue analysis and who can help me with plot. Also read reviews that other people write -- this helps you learn how to review AND what kinds of reviews you want to receive. Often, people will critique back after being critiqued, so best way to jump in is start critiquing and "meeting" people that way. Leave your email (there's a checkbox for it) and thank yous can sometimes turn into conversations offline.

Basically, it's like building a social network. And there's a lot of give and take. And a lot of jumping *out* of the network to periodically read other things posted by other people, and getting random drop in readers. Because the crit group can start focussing in too much sometimes, so randomness is good.

Remind me to give you names of LJs of writers from OWW for you to peek in on. And I've only friended a small handful of them. The OWW amoeba is large and wonderfully inclusive.

I have to admit to being even MORE addicted to LJ now that I've discovered LJ RPGs. This is bad for my writing, but good too, because man I'm learning good plot things recently. And learning a lot about some of the pitfalls of my style. *sighs* Bleh.

The algorithm should work! Also look at your stuff and determine whether you overwrite or underwrite, and that'll help you tune your algorithm. I'm still learning, and have finally (after years and years of screaming "I'm an organic writer!!!") found a way of doing slimline outlines to help keep me on track.

[jb98.livejournal.com]

I have a writer friend in Canada who highly recommends Freefall Writing Workshops (http://www.freefallwriting.com/index.html). I see she offers online opportunities.

Scary can be fun, may you enjoy the process of sorting it out :)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Thanks for the link!

Yes, it can indeed be fun. I know you have embraced that aspect of it at times, and I really respect that. :-)

Some random rectally-derived ideas

[shoutingboy.livejournal.com]

How do you feel about genre fiction? There's a big market for science-fiction or mystery short stories (plenty of magazines out there). What kind of writing do you do?

The risk is being ghettoized--but if you're unpublished, being typecast may seem like an appealing prospect. Anyway, you could always write genre-fic under one name, then change names for Serious Art once you've got some books out.

Another possibility--and I mean this, so please don't spit yet--is romance novels. They're short, there's a huge demand, the publishers may well hold your hand somewhat as you write the first few. Great writing certainly isn't required, but from what I hear, it isn't forbidden, either. It's a way you could work on your craft while getting used to facing down those scary blank pages. (Other similar options, if you're fanboy-inclined, might include those generic series books--Forgotten Realms, video-game tie-in books, that kind of stuff. Not art, but it can be craft, and there's a lot to say for craft.) But in that case, you'd pretty likely want a pseudonym--if they even let you put your name on the cover.

Re: Some random rectally-derived ideas

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

For genre, I'm most likely to go fantasy. Honestly, I'm not sure I'd even mind being ghettoized. I don't ever have to break into Great Literature. If it's fun for the reader it's good enough for me.

I think your idea of romance novels has merit. I haven't found many romance novels I've liked, but there are a few, so the "write what you enjoy reading" stricture could hold. There's a lot to say for craft, indeed. I would want to make sure I could write fantasy in the future, so if that means a pseudonym, that works for me.

Re: Some random rectally-derived ideas

[shoutingboy.livejournal.com]

'For genre, I'm most likely to go fantasy.'

Well, there are some buyers for fantasy short stories--notably Fantasy & Science Fiction (http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/) magazine, though I expect there are others. So you have options short of a full-on novel.

And speaking of romance novels...

[shoutingboy.livejournal.com]

Here's a new approach! (http://www.achewood.com/index.php?date=11032006)

Re: And speaking of romance novels...

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

*laughter* I never bought one of those "flip to page 119" books, but I saw some in a bookstore once. Very odd!