Axles of Evil

[cjsmith]

If I drive an SUV (16MPG) ten miles, is that more evil or less evil than driving my Corolla (40MPG) twenty-five miles?

Comments

Equally Evil (unless you count resources to make it in the first place)

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

10 miles x (1 gallon/16 miles) = 10/16 = 5/8 gallon used

25 miles x (1 gallon/40 miles) = 25/40 = 5/8 gallon used

Presuming that neither car is burning more oil, for instance, and that both are on comparable terrain, that would make either of these equally evil. Of course, there is definitely a case to be made that most folks driving SUVs would tend to drive FARTHER than most folks owning corollas, but we'd have to do more research to find that out for sure. And that doesn't take into account any potential resources discrepencies in creating the vehicle in the first place (I'm imagining that the larger SUV probably takes more raw materials and energy to produce).

But then, the world isn't round, and friction does exist, despite all the problems I worked in college that neglected those factors!

Re: Equally Evil (unless you count resources to make it in the first place)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

You probably guessed that I chose the distances deliberately. :-) I'm discounting the potentially-different amounts of fuel required for starting, too. Obviously, with good enough data I can always tweak the mileage to make the answer come out "equally evil".

So is a long commute socially reprehensible? It sure doesn't get the disdain generated by a really big vehicle. (Note follow-on question about choice. This applies to commute as well as to vehicle.)

Are SUVs less reprehensible if (and I have no data on this, but I'm postulating) they carry children more often than Corollas do? Higher passenger density reduces the MPG per human! (Let's ignore for the moment the impact on the planet created by production of more humans.)

Perhaps Corollas drive greater distances because they're a great right-after-college kind of car. No kids + youthful health and energy = trip to Tahoe every weekend? Obviously, I have no real data.

Not that I'm thinking of buying an SUV. I dislike them, and I dislike sharing the road with them. Nor am I contemplating babies or a long commute. I'm just trying to think it all through.

Re: Equally Evil (unless you count resources to make it in the first place)

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

All good thoughts. I agree that it's paradoxical that folks would look down their noses at SUVs and at the same time think nothing of commuting from Antioch to Silicon Valley. I don't think that SUVs actually end up having a higher passenger density overall, though. It sounds good, and it's certainly true that lots of soccer moms drive them. But much of the time, the mom is driving alone (groceries, bank, hair salon, Costco...). And of course then there are the Yuppies driving their SUVs the way they were INTENDED to be driven--as a SPORT/UTILITY VEHICLE, which means with low passenger density, and lots of skis, up a mountain for a fairly frivolous activity (not trying to dis the sport, BTW, just pointing out that in our country there is very little call for skill in downhill skiing on a day to day basis.)

Any thoughts on the relative evil of flying solo? How about commercial flights (assume a full plane) vs. solo car trips?

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

If Tim and I drive 400 miles in our Chevy Suburban carrying all our gear, is that less evil than spreading our gear around to the four Corollas (approximately, it might take five) it would take to carry it all and driving that same 400 miles? ;-)

Using my SUV for the "utility" part, and yet I take the same amount of shit for owning one as do those who drive one only for "status". *sigh*

I blame the government ;-).

Re: Equally Evil (unless you count resources to make it in the first place)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Any thoughts on the relative evil of flying solo?

In my previous (now deleted) off the cuff answer, I figured it was worse than driving a car solo, although roughly in the same league. I also guessed it was worse than driving an SUV. Let me take a hypothetical trip to Tahoe for a frivolous activity:

Plane: Piper Warrior (why not? it's one I know about), 115kts, 8.8gph. Here to Tahoe as the crow flies (big factor!): 131.9 nautical miles. Flight time 1hr 8mins, fuel used 10.09 gallons. I think the 8.8 number is high -- I pulled it off a web page of a plane for rent -- but the real number definitely won't be as low as the car, below.

Car: Toyota Corolla, let's say 40MPG pretending the entire route is highway. Here to Tahoe on roads: 234 miles says Yahoo. 5.85 gallons used. Of course we won't get the highway mileage in the small roads up the hills, but I don't know what we WILL get. Maybe we'll use closer to seven or eight gallons than six. Still, the car wins.

SUV: previously mentioned Navigator, 16MPG highway. 14.625 gallons used, plus fudge factor for hill roads. The plane's better than that. Of course, the SUV carries skis better!

Then there are secondary factors such as the increased desire to go skiing if you know you can make it a day trip. ;-)

Re: Equally Evil (unless you count resources to make it in the first place)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

How about commercial flights (assume a full plane) vs. solo car trips?

Here the trip to Tahoe is an intriguing example, since I'd have to fly to Reno and drive back. This sort of factor occurs frequently with commercial flight. However, I really don't have good data on fuel usage by commercial airliners, nor is the fuel as easily comparable (does it take more crude to make a gallon of Jet-A or to make a gallon of gasoline?). So I can't give a really hard answer. My bet is that the airliner wins, even for shortish hops. If evil is measured purely in burning of fossil fuels, the airliner becomes even better by making trips inconvenient enough that people don't take them. There are lots of places I wouldn't go by airliner, if I didn't have the other options (car or small plane). Sacramento, for example. I just wouldn't bother. That saves fuel right there.

If evil is measured in terms of environmental impact, my gut feel is that airliners become less helpful because they quite simply fail to kill enough humans. Per year, cars are the best at that, far outpacing both general and commercial aviation. But "environmental impact" as a whole is a question far too broad for the application of my meager Google skills! :-)

Speaking of the distance making a difference... do we disdain people who commute by airliner? I've known some. I don't think I had the same reaction as I have had to people who drive SUVs solo around town. Some day I'd like to do the figures for a guy living in Seattle and working in Sunnyvale, renting (say) a Corolla for the local stuff, versus a five- or ten-mile daily commute in an SUV. I'd be interested in how that comes out.

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

I actively smile when I see a big-ass pickup on the road and it has something sizable in its bed.

I blame stupid people ...okay, the gov ...um, I better quit while I'm ahead. ;-)

Re: Equally Evil (unless you count resources to make it in the first place)

[(Anonymous)]

For additional fun numbers, consider rail - the one anecdotal data point is that the turbine that runs the *entire* MBTA subway system is equivalent to one engine of a 727 :)

I've yet to find good numbers on pure-electric cars, or rather, fuel consumption per kWh at the head end. I have been dismayed at how I apparently can't buy one in any case, because they only build enough to meet the CAFE quotas (and I can't quite justify an acpropulsion.com t-zero...) It's also kind of sad the extent to which VW TDI-based cars get better mileage than US-market hybrids, not to mention the mileage some of the european mini-cars get (the Lupo 3L comes to mind.)


_Mark_

Re: Equally Evil (unless you count resources to make it in the first place)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

727 is a spurious example; the last one flying was just taken off the line not because it was too old to be safe but because it was the least fuel-efficient thing out there.

fuel consumption per kWh at the head end

I too am dismayed at the lack of readily-available data on this sort of thing. I wonder if people believe electricity is clean simply because when it is USED you don't see smoke. I find it easy to believe in economies of scale at the generating plant, but I'd still like to see information.

[firecat]

It's all smoke and mirrors, the real problem is that work spaces and living spaces aren't combined, requiring long commutes, and there is nothing encouraging car manufacturers to produce low-mileage cars, and there is little encouraging government to produce adequate public transportation.

Re: Equally Evil (unless you count resources to make it in the first place)

[gs.livejournal.com]

I wonder if people believe electricity is clean simply because when it is USED you don't see smoke.

...if you use it correctly. Or rather, correctly and without the intent to produce smoke.

I'm sure you've heard about how electronic devices are actually powered by smoke. If you let the smoke out, they don't work anymore :-)